AAR's for the Tournament

[SlySniper]

OK, you can finially discuss round one and what your thoughts are on the battle.

Just to let you know it appears there will be 8 US players and 4 Russian players with victories as to the scenario scoring. So not balenced, but not bad.

The russian wins were due to either aggressive play by the Russian or none-aggressive play by the US player.

So have hope if you lost as a Russian, it appears two of you will get the win for the scoring in the Tournament.


What I think is a key element for both players in this battle is how well did you use your scouting skills in this fight to find out where the enemy was and paths to take to get to your objectives.

I saw way too many Russians not scout ahead of their defences. Early on you had the chance to move units forward and to take the road for the Russian counter attack which was easy points.

I saw a few US players not lead with a scouting unit also and just had their main assets run right into ambush locations.

Leading with a low cost asset and risking it to find the enemy is a tactic that I think should never be ignored.

The terrain seemed restricted, but watching the battles play out showed that there was options as to movement and that there was generally open paths to attack on if you located them.

ANyway the discussion is open to your comments.

 

[olaf]

There was an area called "reinforcement area" which I actually thought would be where MY reinforcements would come from. That changed the whole game for me

 

[Redwolf]

The deciding thing for me as the US player is that I could not get the reinforcing tank company out of its zone without getting shot up from the side all across the map. There was good shooting on the Soviet side.

 

[A Canadian Cat]

Here is the summary of my thoughts I sent to my opponent after we finished:

OK my briefing says that my forces have just secured the area and I am waiting for the anticipated US counter attack. It tells me the US don't have significant armour yet but mine have not arrived either. I am to continue to push forward to control the roads in the reservoir area and I am informed via radio comms intercepts that an M1 tank has been abandoned and the US forces are trying to re-crew it. The briefing specifically suggests I should locate it and prevent it from being re-crewed. I am also informed that my armour reinforcements will arrive before yours.

I believe I actually missed the arrival of my reinforcements because I noticed them by accident at one point and there was no arrival sound that turn. I think I missed their arrival and would have had two more minutes of mayhem if I had been paying proper attention.

So, knowing that my armour comes first and that the M1 is high value I was very aggressive this game. I had no idea where you were located, much less where the M1 was so I did not launch my IFVs loaded with infantry right away. Instead I positioned them on my right flank and let them observe for a minute. Then I loaded up and went after the M1 - which my units spotted in the first minute.

Once my armour arrived (or I noticed I flew as fast as possible towards an objective on my right and then formed them all up for that push on the treatment plant. Once that was looking secure I sent part of my force to support the guys in the overlook area. They had been hanging on by their fingernails. Members of each team tried to surrender several times and I managed to keep them from actually disappearing but when you sent that tank over there I didn't think they would make it. Those guys are the heroes of this battle for me.

 

[OnePingOnly]

Here's my AAR sent to @JTimo:

From the briefing, I determined that my primary objectives were to re-crew the M1 (although it turned out that was not an actual objective for points), then advance toward the town while blunting any Soviet counterattack. The briefing also mentioned securing my rear areas, which I took to mean securing the Water Treatment Plant and the Overlook.

Assuming that there must be some Soviet scouts already near the M1 to make it a challenge, I dropped a few arty rounds on the Water Treatment Plant to dissuade interference in the tank recovery operation. I tasked one infantry platoon to secure the woods along the highway and establishing ambush positions for a Soviet attack that I expected down the hill on my center-left. Forward observers went up the far left flank to observe what was happening in the town and the slopes exiting from it. I caught sight of a few MT-LBs and BMPs shuttling troops <?> down into the woods below the town. I also got spots on AT assets around the town, and called in artillery on them.

Second platoon escorted Mr.Dukakis and his crew to the M1, laid down some smoke, and re-crewed in the face of surprising enemy fire deep in my rear - from across the reservoir. 2nd Platoon then proceeded to secure the H2O Treatment Plant, which was undefended. I elected not to pursue the Soviet scouts that scattered into the woods behind the reservoir, although I was uncertain how this would impact my objective to secure the rear area. In retrospect, not getting bogged down in this operation was a good thing.

My main force arrived in an awkward entry zone in the far southern forest. Two of my M60s were immobilized early on, trying to negotiate the forest. I also vacillated on how to use my 3 platoons of M60s. My original plan was to push to the town on the right flank, but early non-penetrating hits on my M60s traversing toward the Overlook from JTimo's tanks and AT guns, and the appearance of the T-64s on my left across the valley caused me to pause and better evaluate LOS. I was also surprised (and should not have been) that JTimo had occupied the Overlook, and lost an M901 and some troops that were trying to waltz in without proper scouting. Overall, JTimo's long-range threat was able to delay me from taking more decisive action, earlier. ***A better use of my artillery would have been to smoke up the Russian-held town so that I could maneuver my reinforcements faster, earlier. The briefing told me when they would arrive, so I could have pre-planned this.***

I tried to use the Overlook and the ridge south of it as a base of fire, using the M60 TTS' ability to self-smoke screen and fire through it, but the 105mm guns weren't extremely effective against the tough T-64s at that range. In the final map review, it looks like I achieved 3 or 4 "mission kills" by damaging T-64 guns, but that was unclear at the time. I did get a couple of kill shots into the sides of maneuvering T-64s, and was able to kill a few AT & support vehicles up on the ridge. Once I thought the Soviets had been suppressed, I moved my mech force forward toward the stream. My vehicles moving from the Overlook made the dash without incident, but 2 M60s that I arrogantly pushed forward near the reservoir got taken out by T-64s when they outran their smoke.

I was able to get the M1 and some M60s to the base of the hill in the center to take out the Soviet BMP mech platoon that pushed down the valley, and these tanks used hull-down positions to pick off defending Soviet vehicles in the town. There was no decisive engagement with the T-64s; the long-range tank vs. tank battle was pretty much a 1:1 kill ratio.

The rest of my mech force crossed the creek and positioned to push up the far right flank to the Forward Progress touch objective, which I expected to be bloody. I was laying a smoke screen with artillery to block potential flanking fire by the T-64s when the clock ran out.

Overall, it was not a lot of time to recon, develop (and commit to) a plan in the face of competing objectives, and then execute in a fluid environment. But it was fun!

Thanks for a good game, @JTimo ! I appreciate it!

I really enjoyed the map, @SlySniper . There were a lot of options. The briefing left a lot to interpretation, which was initially frustrating but I think I happened to parse it correctly. Definitely could have gone the other way.

 

[SlySniper]

No question, smoke use for the americans is a critical part of getting units in place and not pre-positioned shot up to hell.

As for time to do missions, part of the basics in this tournament is scenarios are going to be short and sweet.

Not really a situation of lets test my options and then try the best path. It is a battle of selecting what seems your best option and making it work or if its going to adapt, its slight adjustments to your original plans.
Personnaly, given enough time, a skilled player with a logical force advantage is almost impossible to stop in the game. So I like limiting time no matter what when in h2h play, but hey thats just my opinion.

Briefings are in general going to be brief with limited infomation, I do want to force the player to have to make some uninformed decisions.
I do not try to mis-lead in the briefings, normally if its mentioned there is a purpose for it being noted.
but by not being detailed, it is very possible for someone to make decisions that are incorrect. So dont read more into a briefing than is there unless you want to do it at your own risk.

 

[OnePingOnly]

Not really a situation of lets test my options and then try the best path. It is a battle of selecting what seems your best option and making it work or if its going to adapt, its slight adjustments to your original plans.
Personnaly, given enough time, a skilled player with a logical force advantage is almost impossible to stop in the game. So I like limiting time no matter what when in h2h play, but hey thats just my opinion.

Oh, I totally agree. Games should always feel a bit pushed for time. This op had the added pressure of not exactly knowing the relative value of the objectives and the stated/implied mission elements. That's not a complaint!
I wasted a good 7-8 minutes trying to change my plan, then changing back - that's on me.

 

[JTimo]

Here's my AAR vs 1Ping

First, let me give @OnePingOnly credit for a well played game. He used the terrain well, staying out of LOS of my AT assets located on the high ground along the northern portion of the map, and methodically progressed from the south towards the north.


FOW in CM makes it hard to appreciate the excellent play of your opponent, and the lack of a video replay at the end of game, in the AAR phase, prevents you from really knowing what your opponent did to attain the victory.


So, let me describe my pre-game analysis


From the briefing, I understood that I needed to attack, and do it quick, but when I saw my initial forces, 2 AT platoons (1 using immobile field guns), 1 infantry platoon w/o transport, and a second platoon of infantry, scattered, in separate locations far to the south, I decided an attack wasn’t realistic until my reinforcements arrived.


A marked area some 200-300 meters out from my main setup zone was labeled “Amer. Forward Progress”. I interpreted this line to be an indication of where the U.S. setup zone began which meant that the units of my scattered 3rd platoon where in isolated locations within the enemy controlled part of the map.


Finally, there was an abandoned, or immobilized M1 somewhere. I figured the M1 was a U.S. victory location, marked by a disabled M1. If you’re counting missed interpretations, that would be strike three, and I’d be “out”.


Assuming one of those strikes was a foul-tip, I insured my KO when I interpreted the West edge “Russian Counter Attack” label to be an indication of where my reinforcements would arrive.


There was one more question. Where would the U.S. reinforcements enter the map. In CW, the U.S. would come from the SW, but in previous FW tournament games, Sly has been, shall we say “sly”. He often locates enemy forces in map areas that are your rear flanks, and on this map, there were some ideal places in the NW corner area. So, a Russian mass charge towards the isolated Russian 3rd platoon, from either my main setup zone in the north, or the west (via that road with the Russian Counter label) would be at the mercy of the U.S. tanks located on high ground in that NW corner.


With all that, my plan was to start the game by sending out scouts from the 1st platoon to find the enemy. One team was sent down along the East edge of the map, a second down the center, and a third positioned way over on the west side of my setup zone (wasn’t sure if I was placing that team in an enemy held area) with the task of getting early eyes on U.S. reinforcements coming in from that NW corner.


My scouts found nothing. My squad at the treatment plant got an early light armor contact on the other side of the woods on the north side of the plant. I hunted through the woods with both teams, but they were taken out by the vehicle and its dismounts before they ever go a solid spot. As that was happening, my MG team on the south side of the reservoir spotted the M1 and shortly after that a few U.S. squads coming out of the woods. I sent some AT teams from the village, but by the time they covered the 600 m to get eyes on the M1, It was re-crewed in time to spot the AT teams, and defeat the threat.


I still had no intel on enemy strength or locations when my reinforcements arrive, so I sent them to the west in the hopes of ambushing his reinforcements which I was convinced would come in from that NW corner; When they arrived on the south edge instead, I positioned my tanks in hull-down positions along the north-west high ground, but my opponent kept his units along the backside of the tree lines, and my Russian tankers only got one or maybe two kills.


A mounted push by 2nd platoon managed to get down to the main road just north of the treatment plant, where they were stopped cold by the M1, which One-Ping reinforced with infantry and a platoon of M-60s. My high-ground overwatch was unable to get LOS to support them, and several of my tanks were taken out while trying to move to supporting positions.


That was pretty much the sum-total of how this game played out. There was not much action, and most of the damage was dealt by One-Ping. The game has 1 minute to go at the time of my writing of this AAR, but the final score should be decisive in favor of One-Ping.


Congrats on a game well played.

 

[JTimo]

I do want to force the player to have to make some uninformed decisions.

This scenario had a back history, and as the Russian commander, I would likely have known what that was, and how I got here. I interpreted the on map labeled VLs as being hints to that back history (not objectives), and I was clearly wrong (not unusual for me).
The briefing told me there is an abandoned enemy tank. If I know that, wouldn't I know where it was. The units that began the game in a position to do something about that tank were used to react to some early enemy contacts, which took them in the wrong direction (that could be interpreted as a good move on my opponents part).
The U.S. forward progress label led me to think that my units south of that line were cutoff from the forces I had in the main town, and the Russian counter-attack label gave me the impression that my reinforcements would be coming from that direction.
This may all be due to the number of your games that I have played. That past experience left me guessing to the point where, when I saw what was unfolding, it was too late for me to do much about it. At that point I wasn't much more than a spectator.

Then again, maybe I think too much.

 

[olaf]

Ah yes I had the same impression regarding the US forward progress label. I thought there was enemy presence there.

And I also misunderstood the russian counter attack label.

 

[SlySniper]

well, this does bring up the point that I may have done things that are mis-leading when I do not want them to be - so that is on me for bad communications.

So lets make a point here, if there is items that seem unclear - you are allowed to post open questions here during the set up phase of a new battle and I can possible reply and give clarifications that I might have missed while puitting the game together - keep in mind, I have no peer review on these. you are getting my stuff with no checking and imput from others.

Now, that might resolve a few things and will be available to eveyone if I reply with more info. But this will only be on things where I do see it as a unintended item or unclear items that I wanted to be understood.

 

[Shady Side]

Here is how @acanadiancat clobbered me:
I opened by laying a smoke screen around the M1 Abrams. I kept my opening force together and moved them though the woods to the Abrams and treatment plant objective and it worked far better than I could have hoped for. I recrewed the tank with no problems. Even better than that the I had my entire force lined up on the secondary road leading to the treatment plant when a platoon of enemy infantry in MTLB'S came screaming down that road toward the treatment plant and they might as well been lining up in front of a firing squad one squad having the misfortune of disembarking in the center of what mounted to a 3 sided fire sack and being gunned down without firing a shoot before their MTLB had a law rocketed fired up its tail pipe. So you may be asking yourself with such a good start how did it end so bad for me.
Well a combination of me wasting time and him doing the absolute last thing I expected. Not thinking I could do much until my reinforcements showed up I muttered around mopping up survivors of that first charge. When my hero platoon had got good and scattered about aimlessly looking for enemy stragglers and generally dicking around and when my reinforcements arrived I started getting terrifying panic inducing sound contacts of a massive amour supported counterattack heading for the treatment plant. having used most of their law rockets on the MTLB's and being scattered and in a lot of cases tired i knew I was in trouble. I had some dragons but knew the fight was going to be a way to close range for them to be effective. I also knew that getting the reinforcements around the corner by the overlook which i assumed was occupied and dead in front of the town objective was going to be tricky to start with but assuming that after his first attack had been so badly squashed he would use his reinforcements to dig in and defend the town i figured i would have time to drop another quick smoke screen has infantry swarmed the lookout and rush around the corner and down into the valley hook up with my starting force and launch a reasonable attempt at taking the town. I was dead wrong about all that!!
So i tried to rush to the defense of my hero platoon and when i tried to microwave the process of getting around the corner by the lookout all my tanks simply blew up.. Just bang bang bang.. mostly without getting a spot on their murderers. With reinforcements dead or pinned on their ridgeline it was just a matter of time till my hero platoon and Abrams was overwhelmed by the second counterattack.
Sending that second attack was the last thing i expected and it caught me completely off guard which lead to me completely mishandling my response to it. Which lead to me getting my teeth kicked in. Hats off to A Canadian Cat

 

[olaf]

Did anyone from the russian side have their ATGM vehicles manage to shoot missiles?

 

[greyfox]

Did anyone from the russian side have their ATGM vehichles manage to shoot missiles?

Indeed, I turned them out and got I think a couple of kills out of one of them.

 

[Lews Therin]

Did anyone from the russian side have their ATGM vehichles manage to shoot missiles?

Nope. Two got whacked near the beginning without spotting anything, the last just never got a shot lined up

 

[JTimo]

Nope, none here. Also, one of my ATGs would not fire despite LOS and repeated targeting commands on more than one enemy vehicle.

 

[A Canadian Cat]

Did anyone from the russian side have their ATGM vehicles manage to shoot missiles?

Hell yeah! They were invaluable. The AT guns were handy too because I could area fire with them.

 

[A Canadian Cat]

Here is how @acanadiancat clobbered me:
I opened by laying a smoke screen around the M1 Abrams. I kept my opening force together and moved them though the woods to the Abrams and treatment plant objective and it worked far better than I could have hoped for. I recrewed the tank with no problems. Even better than that the I had my entire force lined up on the secondary road leading to the treatment plant when a platoon of enemy infantry in MTLB'S came screaming down that road toward the treatment plant and they might as well been lining up in front of a firing squad one squad having the misfortune of disembarking in the center of what mounted to a 3 sided fire sack and being gunned down without firing a shoot before their MTLB had a law rocketed fired up its tail pipe. So you may be asking yourself with such a good start how did it end so bad for me.

Yeah, I was really worried at this point. Crap. In rushing for the M1 I got ambushed badly. The smoke was the best move to recover the M1. Otherwise I might have been able to cause crew casualties but I never got that chance.

Well a combination of me wasting time and him doing the absolute last thing I expected. Not thinking I could do much until my reinforcements showed up I muttered around mopping up survivors of that first charge. When my hero platoon had got good and scattered about aimlessly looking for enemy stragglers and generally dicking around and when my reinforcements arrived I started getting terrifying panic inducing sound contacts of a massive amour supported counterattack heading for the treatment plant. having used most of their law rockets on the MTLB's and being scattered and in a lot of cases tired i knew I was in trouble. I had some dragons but knew the fight was going to be a way to close range for them to be effective.

Those dragons scared me. I spent a lot of time blasting away at their last known and suspected locations. More than half my force was paying attention to those guys.

I also knew that getting the reinforcements around the corner by the overlook which i assumed was occupied and dead in front of the town objective was going to be tricky to start with but assuming that after his first attack had been so badly squashed he would use his reinforcements to dig in and defend the town i figured i would have time to drop another quick smoke screen has infantry swarmed the lookout and rush around the corner and down into the valley hook up with my starting force and launch a reasonable attempt at taking the town. I was dead wrong about all that!!

You were right about my guys hunkering down.

So i tried to rush to the defense of my hero platoon and when i tried to microwave the process of getting around the corner by the lookout all my tanks simply blew up.. Just bang bang bang.. mostly without getting a spot on their murderers. With reinforcements dead or pinned on their ridgeline it was just a matter of time till my hero platoon and Abrams was overwhelmed by the second counterattack.

Bang bang bang was the AT guns. The swoosh bang were the ATGMs Meanwhile the situation at the over-watch location was very dire for me. I had only two fire teams and an MG team. On one occasion all but one member of each those fire teams tried to surrender. Thankfully they had managed to cause some casualties on the attackers and I moved the MG team around to bolster the morale. I managed to get them to pickup arms again. They kept dealing casualties and taking them. They slipped into offering surrender a second time. Thankfully there was just not enough enemy moving up to push them over the edge. My tanks and some infantry arrived with just minutes left and bolstered them.

I held that location by the very skin of my men's teeth.

Sending that second attack was the last thing i expected and it caught me completely off guard which lead to me completely mishandling my response to it. Which lead to me getting my teeth kicked in. Hats off to A Canadian Cat

Thanks, it was a very fun battle.

 

[JTimo]

Hell yeah!

OK, so what’s the secret?

 

[A Canadian Cat]

OK, so what’s the secret?

I'm not sure. I did not leave them in their default locations. I positioned them with key whole LOF to the open ground on the way to the Over-watch objective and the approaches to the town. I also moved one to my right flank into the trees so it could also only see a small section of the battle field but could be moved to choose between a few possible areas that needed covering.