Compassion in Combat Mission... does it have a place?

Bootie

Bootie

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Compassion in Combat Mission... does it have a place?

Ive always sat and wondered about this. Having never been in the military it sometimes runs through my head how I would cope if the game wasn't a game at all but I was in charge of these little guys lives.

Would it change the way I order them on the battlefield?

Would it improve the way I play?

LINK
 
Bootie said:
Compassion in Combat Mission... does it have a place?

Ive always sat and wondered about this. Having never been in the military it sometimes runs through my head how I would cope if the game wasn't a game at all but I was in charge of these little guys lives.

Would it change the way I order them on the battlefield?

Would it improve the way I play?

LINK
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You know that's funny you should bringing this up, when I first started playing Combat Mission I never wanted to send men into a situation that would end in disaster, I would feel that was mean go careful with the guys...And then I realized you just don't win battles like that.....Interesting post Mate
 
In both cases, I think that compassion can often lead to worse consequences than acting agressively. Compassion can prevent you from acting decisively and lets the situation detiorate around you. You lose control and are forced to react to the actions of your opponent. In most cases this leads to more casualties, both immediate and collateral, than seizing the upperhand immediately and forcing your opponent to react to your actions.

That being said, I still have problems with this in CM. I hate to lose a single unit or piece of equipment and this makes me hesitant when the bullets start flying. In CM, as in a real situation, it is unrealistic to think you can accomplish your objective without sustaining casualties. This is counter intuitive to the way most people think. In real life that is why the military recruits young people, not only are they in the best physical condition, they are also much more impressionable and thus easier to manipulate into accepting a warrior mentality.
 
Hmm...

In CM, compassion is a liability. Your commanding virtual soldiers. Some units like recon vehicles and half squads, WILL be destroyed for the purpose of locating the enemy... Compassion for the pawns leaves the Rooks at risk...

Surveying my troops at the start of a game, all smartly positioned at their start line, ready to jump off, I'm hopeful that my skill as a commander will allow most of them to survive, because their survival facilitates my victory. As soon as the bullets start flying, it's down to business, and preservation of force is weighed against requirements for victory...

As for compassion in Real Life, well it's a quintessential human virtue, and as naturally human as drawing breath...
 
Mikey said:
As for compassion in Real Life, well it's a quintessential human virtue, and as naturally human as drawing breath...
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But this begs the question; What creates the utter lack of this quintessential human virtue in a small but influential group of people? Atilla, Hitler, Stalin. Pol Pot et al.
 
ACSpectre said:
But this begs the question; What creates the utter lack of this quintessential human virtue in a small but influential group of people? Atilla, Hitler, Stalin. Pol Pot et al.
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Selective compassion my friend. Even hitler had friends and loved ones as Mao and Stalin. Though with Stalin may be a little different
 
What creates the utter lack of this quintessential human virtue in a small but influential group of people?
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Hmmmm.....

Hitler is a fascinating example.

He saw himself as the savior of his broken people. He would be their God, their strength and purpose, the very air they breathed, the very ground they walked on... He would be the one they infinitely trusted, the one that would root out and destroy the parasitic scourge that ate away at the body of his nation... Then, only once the cancer had been removed, could his nation rise up, beyond the confines of normal mortality, into the supra-human realm... A nation of Supermen lead by their World Messiah...

What a mind F*ck.

So what Hitler became wasn't human, it was some linguistic concoction... Everything he did made perfect SENSE in his mind, in his worldview, in the narrow confines of his distorted perspective... He was a "World Messiah", and thus he was permitted to act inhumane in order to fulfill the requirements that were implicit in the role of "World Messiah." Fascinating.

What was it that Alec Guinness said in Lawrence of Arabia?? Something like "You're just a general, but I must be a king." Perfect, that's it really. King's are permitted to act inhumanely, without compassion, because that's what expected of Kings.

I imagine Hitler's friends and loved ones didn't remember them as everyone else did, because it was only with them could he take the "Hitler Hat" off, and act human.

Very interesting discussion.
 
I think the argument can be made that compassion is not a naturally human virtue but a learned trait. We are basically animals with base instincts to survive and pro-create. In dire circumstances, be they real or manufactured in one's mind, the human animal comes out and compassion is non-existent. An infant has no concept of compassion. There entire existence is driven by hunger and pain avoidance to the exclusion of all else. It is not until they are integrated into society and taught social norms that concern for others is an understandable concept for them.
 
I think the argument can be made that compassion is not a naturally human virtue but a learned trait. We are basically animals with base instincts to survive and pro-create. In dire circumstances, be they real or manufactured in one's mind, the human animal comes out and compassion is non-existent. An infant has no concept of compassion. There entire existence is driven by hunger and pain avoidance to the exclusion of all else. It is not until they are integrated into society and taught social norms that concern for others is an understandable concept for them.
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Valid points!

I guess it comes down who you choose to become...

Are you simply an ape, who sh*ts, f*cks and sleeps?
Because you have an as*hole, do you crap anywhere?
Because you have a willy, do you screw anything that moves?
Because you have a mouth, do you ravenously consume everything you see?
Because you can speak, do you ceaselessly warble on about meaningless nonsense?

You may have the body of an ape, but that doesn't mean you have to act like an animal...

I might suggest that the body is a system, with required input and necessary output. It's a platform of biological hardware running linguistic software.

First, the preliminary OS software: Age 0-7... Survival, how to eat, how to speak, etc...
Then, more advanced software: Age 7-13... Relationships, etc...
Higher programming: Age 13-17... Who am I, culture, society, etc...
Age 17+... Realization that the software can be re-written, that you are NOT simply what your expected to be, but a being unto yourself... Necessary rebellion against the "parent" system, search for self, discovery of personal interests, redefinition of self along one's own chosen parameters, etc...

Not a perfect example of course, but still the basic point holds. You may be a piece of biological hardware, but the software you run is up to you... Your life is yours to live, your linguistic software is yours to rewrite as you see fit. And if you so choose, you can install Compassion 2.0 on your virtual hard drive.

matrix_spoon_boy.jpg
 
Mikey said:
Valid points!
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Perhaps, but I don't think they are correct.

Did anyone of yo ever read "Mere Christianity" by C.S Lewis ? Particularly the first one or two chapters ?

He describes the way he became a Christian as a scientist in scientifically way.

According to his observations we are all born with an inherent right-and-wrong knowledge (the point he made that this inborn knowledge is a God given).
Fact is that the Stalins, Hitlers etc are through the ages and worldwide (with all the different cultures) a very small minority. Why doesn't more people live totally selfish lives so that their lives may be better/easier then if they had chosen for a "normal" life ?

I am with C.S. Lewis. I think it is more then just our upbringing.
 
Getting back on topic, does compassion belong in CM ?
I never think of the little pixel soldiers having pixel widows crying on the door step when they hear the bad news. However, if I'm playing a campaign battle in Onion Wars or CMMC3 where you have an OOB and need to keep a formation in fighting order I tend to be more careful, I tend to quite attached to units under my command. In the Onion Wars campaign I have force of about 11 infantry companies and about a tank company under my command. These type of campaigns are the reasons I play CM.
 
Mikey said:
Not a perfect example of course, but still the basic point holds. You may be a piece of biological hardware, but the software you run is up to you... Your life is yours to live, your linguistic software is yours to rewrite as you see fit. And if you so choose, you can install Compassion 2.0 on your virtual hard drive.
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I love the computer metaphor! However I think we have less of a choice in the matter. We learn primarily by our surroundings and our environment. Children raised in a loving compassionate environment will grow up to have and display these traits while children who grow up in less compassionate environs will display traits reflecting their upbringing. It is possible to change learned behaviors and human's ability to recognize the need for change is one of the things that seperates us from the rest of the animal world. I won't argue whether that ability is God given or scientifically explained by humans having a more developed brain.

Our hard drives are initially programmed by the environments we are exposed to. It is possible to change a hard drive, but it is difficult even with the proper tech support.
 
ACSpectre said:
I think the argument can be made that compassion is not a naturally human virtue but a learned trait. We are basically animals with base instincts to survive and pro-create. In dire circumstances, be they real or manufactured in one's mind, the human animal comes out and compassion is non-existent. An infant has no concept of compassion. There entire existence is driven by hunger and pain avoidance to the exclusion of all else. It is not until they are integrated into society and taught social norms that concern for others is an understandable concept for them.
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Partially it is learned from society. But, inherently, compassion derives from empathy, which is self-learned.

A child which does not develop empathy develops into a sociopath...a person with no conception of any needs other than his or her own. You can help children develop empathy by demonstrating compassion yourself and asking them to think about the impact of things on others, but ultimately it is up to the child itself to use its imagination.

So it's a mixture...the development of empathy leads to compassion, and the social norms of your culture and, in particular, your immediate family, drive the degree to which compassion is demonstrated and characterised.

Interestingly I recall reading a study that concluded a large number (not all) of sucessful business leaders were clinical sociopaths...people completely driven by serving their own needs to the exclusion of all else and for whom remorse or guilt simply did not factor. The events of the past two years would tend to bear that out.

As for Combat Mission...no room for compassion there! A successful commander must be willing to expend his men's lives on necessary tasks. No wonder the burden of command broke so many people.
 
Interestingly I recall reading a study that concluded a large number (not all) of sucessful business leaders were clinical sociopaths...people completely driven by serving their own needs to the exclusion of all else and for whom remorse or guilt simply did not factor. The events of the past two years would tend to bear that out.
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Yes, I seem to recall similar diagnosis in the film "The Corporation", a clinical study of the corporation as if it were a human being, which BY LAW, it is so considered.

But corporations won't always be so... As the old guard retires, a new generation of business leaders inherit the enterprises of their sociopathic predecessors, and have the opportunity to take charge at the helm, and plot a new course...

There are some good examples being set in the corporate world, like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet... The Bill Gates foundation has an impressive reach, funding a multitude of global projects ,with the majority of the work in health, poverty, development and agriculture focused in Africa. I was particularly impressed with the effort to grow new varieties of drought resistant African seeds..

Warren Buffet, businessman and philanthropist, has pledged $31+ Billion to the Gates foundation...

***

So insanity won't always be prerequisite for corporate leaders... Things change, and as the effects we are having on our environment become more know, the nessessity for change becomes paramount.

I forget the exact number, but something as little as 1% of world GDP would be required to end extreme poverty and lift the bottom billion out of their poverty trap, get them on their way on the first rung of the economic development ladder... Less then 1% GDP... Pretty good investment.
 
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