Don't Tear Me Down

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Christian Soldier

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Another Veterans Memorial Cross Ruled Unconstitutional!

The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals recently ruled that the Mount Soledad Memorial, a 43-foot-tall veterans memorial cross in San Diego, is unconstitutional. Unless the Obama administration appeals the case and the U.S. Supreme Court accepts it, this veterans memorial cross is in jeopardy of being torn down forever.

Liberty Institute represents The American Legion in the case, and we need your help! Please call the White House now to ask President Obama to stand for the veterans and appeal the case! Also, visit www.DontTearMeDown.com to sign a petition asking President Obama to appeal this hurtful decision to the U.S. Supreme Court to prevent permanent destruction of this memorial.
 
How any memorial can be "unconstitutional", is beyond me.
 
Because there are "Liberal" loons who firmly believe that there should be a stark divide of religion and state. And that any public display of anything even remotely religious is unconstitutional. Yet our constituion decrees a freedom OF religion, not FROM religion. Our founding fathers were devoute in their belief of God and Christianity.
 
I guess I'm one of those "liberal loons" (even though I'm the most libertarian person you'll ever meet) because I believe this was the correct decision. Freedom of religion means that my tax dollars shouldn't be used to erect a Christian (or Jewish, or Muslim, or Satanic, etc.) memorial on public land (ie: land that I helped pay for).

Freedom OF religion most certainly does mean freedom FROM religion, as "no religion" is an option under that freedom. Using public funds to recognize a specific religion and build a monument using its imagery is a violation of church and state. Also, many of the founding fathers were deists, not Christians. And even if they were all Christians (which they weren't), it wouldn't invalidate the separation of church and state. If you want to put up a big cross to remember fallen soldiers, go right ahead. But don't do it with my tax money and don't put it on land that I pay for.
 
AirborneBob said:
. Our founding fathers were devoute in their belief of God and Christianity.
Click to expand...

Not all of them

Edit: Whoops, serves me right for not reading Cue-Balls post, all the credit for having facts on his side goes to him : )
 
This is gonna get interesting. Everyone, please continue!
 
Cue-Ball said:
I guess I'm one of those "liberal loons" (even though I'm the most libertarian person you'll ever meet) because I believe this was the correct decision. Freedom of religion means that my tax dollars shouldn't be used to erect a Christian (or Jewish, or Muslim, or Satanic, etc.) memorial on public land (ie: land that I helped pay for).

Freedom OF religion most certainly does mean freedom FROM religion, as "no religion" is an option under that freedom. Using public funds to recognize a specific religion and build a monument using its imagery is a violation of church and state. Also, many of the founding fathers were deists, not Christians. And even if they were all Christians (which they weren't), it wouldn't invalidate the separation of church and state. If you want to put up a big cross to remember fallen soldiers, go right ahead. But don't do it with my tax money and don't put it on land that I pay for.
Click to expand...

Name your deist?

Nowhere in our Constitution does it have seperation of church and state.
 
Cue-Ball......I don’t think your tax dollars paid for that memorial dedicated in 1954.
 
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."

Thomas Jefforson

Jan.1.1802.

"The 1796 treaty with Tripoli states that the United States was "in no sense founded on the Christian religion" (see below). This was not an idle statement, meant to satisfy muslims-- they believed it and meant it. This treaty was written under the presidency of George Washington and signed under the presidency of John Adams."

titleXI.jpg


http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."
- "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

James Madison

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."

John Adams

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear. "

Thomas Jefferson

"In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the lack of it."

Benjamin Franklin


Is it not painfully embarrasing to be so wrong all the time?
 
Christian Soldier said:
Name your deist?

.
Click to expand...

"In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the lack of it."

Benjamin Franklin

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."

John Adams

Do they sound like the words of "devout christians" to you/
 
Jonny said:
"In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the lack of it."

Benjamin Franklin

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."

John Adams

Do they sound like the words of "devout christians" to you/
Click to expand...

Those sound like sentences taken out of context.

Stay tuned...more later.
 
Christian Soldier said:
Those sound like sentences taken out of context.
Click to expand...
Even if they were, it wouldn't matter. There's substantial evidence to suggest that some of the founding fathers were not Christians, but even if they were all card carrying, bible toting, Christian true believers... it would not matter one iota. The U.S. Constitution expressly forbids laws "respecting an establishment of religion". If erecting a 40 foot tall Christian cross isn't "respecting an establishment of religion" then I don't know what is. Even if you very strictly interpreted the First Amendment and didn't view this as an establishment of religion it still wouldn't matter. The California State Constitution guarantees the "free exercise and enjoyment of religion without discrimination or preference." Courts have ruled that it is illegal to erect a religious monument on public land. Period. End of story.

It's funny how people never seem to find any harm when it's their religion that's being represented, but when it's someone else's religion suddenly there's a problem. Imagine for a moment that instead of a 40 foot cross it was a 40 foot pentagram or maybe "God doesn't exist" in letters as tall as the Hollywood sign, being displayed on public land and supported with public funds. I'd imagine you probably wouldn't be quite so supportive of seeing it preserved.
 
In the 1950's a memorial was erected for the remembrance of American veterans. Initially erected to honour the veterans who fought in the Korean War.
It was founded and paid for by the The American Legion Post #275, La Jolla, California. In 2006 the memorial was transferred to the US federal government (http://www.soledadmemorial.com/web/pages/about_the_memorial.htm) .

So, a lot of the points put forward in this discussion against this memorial are beside the point. Secondly, who had made this particular cross a religious symbol ?

The US constitution has nothing to do with it. To me it is a case of some people with to much time and money who spent it on an issue like this. They searched for a stick to beat the Christians (or perhaps religion in general) and found this one. They could have spent it better on poverty etc. As I understand there is plenty of that in California too !
 
It's silly to argue that a cross isn't a religious symbol.

I don't disagree that it seems much ado about very little. Still, principles matter.
 
CS

Wern't you against the "Ground Zero" mosque?

Seems a tad hypocritical
 
Cue-Ball said:
It's funny how people never seem to find any harm when it's their religion that's being represented, but when it's someone else's religion suddenly there's a problem. Imagine for a moment that instead of a 40 foot cross it was a 40 foot pentagram or maybe "God doesn't exist" in letters as tall as the Hollywood sign, being displayed on public land and supported with public funds. I'd imagine you probably wouldn't be quite so supportive of seeing it preserved.
Click to expand...

Well said.

:RpS_thumbup:
 
I dont mind mosques being buildt...its building one on or near ground zero that is just in bad taste. It would be like putting a chemical plant at Treblinka or Dachau....yeah you may have a right to build it, but there is also a civic and moral responsiblity to consider
 
AirborneBob said:
I dont mind mosques being buildt...its building one on or near ground zero that is just in bad taste. It would be like putting a chemical plant at Treblinka or Dachau....yeah you may have a right to build it, but there is also a civic and moral responsiblity to consider
Click to expand...

Or building a Japanese cultural centre near Pearl Harbour, oh wait there is one

And you can never ever build a church anywhere near the Oklahoma City bombing site

Oh and of course the Church in which Dr George Tiller was killed in, that has to be torn down

Strange how when a Christian commits an atrocity it has nothing to do with his religion but when a muslim does it, tut tut no muslim anything allowed within 50 miles
 
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