Don't Tear Me Down

  • Thread starter Christian Soldier
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How would Britain react to a German "Heritage" center being built in downtown London in 1952? What I am saying is its a matter of timing....Japan is now an Ally with us against threats to Freedom, (not sure where you are going on the whole OKC thing and Abortion, unless you want to link extreme right wing domsetic terrorists to Christianity)
 
You telling me Dr Tillers killer wasn't motivated by religion?

My point is both Tim McVeigh and Tillers killer were both christian, linking them to mainstream christianity is as absurd as linking the 9/11 terrorists to mainstream islam
 
Let it be known that I did not declare that there were no deist founding fathers I merely asked them to be named.

Jonny said:
Is it not painfully embarrasing to be so wrong all the time?
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Christian Soldier said:
Where am I wrong?
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Jonny said:
"In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the lack of it."

Benjamin Franklin

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."

John Adams

Do they sound like the words of "devout christians" to you/
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First I think we should define DEIST. A deist is someone that believes that God created the universe and then abandoned it. That being the case there would be no need for worship or prayer because it would have no influence on an absent God... worship or prayer just would not matter.

Here is a little something from Benjamin Franklin taken from his speech requesting prayers at the Constitutional Convention July 28, 1787.

“In this situation of this Assembly, groping as it were in the dark to find political truth, and scarce able to distinguish it when presented to us, how has it happened, Sir, that we have not hitherto once thought of humbly applying to the Father of lights to illuminate our understandings? In the beginning of the Contest with G. Britain, when we were sensible of danger we had daily prayer in this room for the divine protection.- Our prayers, Sir, were heard, & they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a superintending providence in our favor.

To that kind providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? or do we imagine that we no longer need his assistance? I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth- that God Governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings, that "except the Lord build the House they labour in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better, than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Governments by Human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.”

Now for John Adams; these excerpts are taken from the Library of Congress.

Adams on Religion
John Adams, a self-confessed "church going animal," grew up in the Congregational Church in Braintree, Massachusetts. By the time he wrote this letter his theological position can best be described as Unitarian. In this letter Adams tells Jefferson that "Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell."

Adams's Fast Day Proclamation
John Adams continued the practice, begun in 1775 and adopted under the new federal government by Washington, of issuing fast and thanksgiving day proclamations. In this proclamation, issued at a time when the nation appeared to be on the brink of a war with France, Adams urged the citizens to "acknowledge before God the manifold sins and transgressions with which we are justly chargeable as individuals and as a nation; beseeching him at the same time, of His infinite grace, through the Redeemer of the World, freely to remit all our offences, and to incline us, by His Holy Spirit, to that sincere repentance and reformation which may afford us reason to hope for his inestimable favor and heavenly benediction."

Hmmm....very interesting.
 
Good job researching that out Christian Soldier. Looks like check mate against Jonny and his out of context quotes. Sadly, not the first time he has tried that tactic.
Lord Bane
 
It would be pretty surprising if most people of that age weren't generally religious in one sense or the other. It's not terribly important to me, but I have read the occasional diatribe from either side that yes the US was founded on God or no it wasn't they intended to keep it separate.

I'm pretty sure that John Adams quote of Johnsy's is taken out of context from a letter where Adams was exasperated about interdemoninational acrimony between various Christian sects who all believed their way was the only true Christian way. Not hard to understand people losing patience with the institution of religion, as opposed to the basic tenets of Christianity/Judaism/Islam/Mormonism/Hinduism etc etc.....doesn't make them not a Christian or whatever. It seems to have been an underlying motivation in his belief that the government of the US should never favour one religion over another.

Seems to me the better view is that the founders intended to keep religion out of the constitution not because they didn't believe in it in some sense (Jefferson aside, definite athiest) but because it was politically divisive and they were seeking to unite what was quite a diverse range of polticial, religious, cultural and ethnic groups.

Out of line to suggest that Jonny was deliberately taking something out of context unless you know for a fact that he was aware of the context and went ahead anyway.
 
Howdy McIvan,
In your post you mention it was Johnsy but it was not our friend from down under. It was Jonny our learned friend from the U.K. Simple mistake but I just wanted credit to be given where credit is due.
 
McIvan said:
(Jefferson aside, definite athiest)
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Thomas Jefferson Document
Thomas Jefferson - 09/24/1807

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Following is an original document in WallBuilders possession, signed by Thomas Jefferson on September 24, 1807. This document is permission for a ship called the Herschel to proceed on its journey to the port of London. The interesting characteristic of this document is the use of the phrase "in the year of our Lord Christ." Many official documents say "in the year of our Lord," but we have found very few that include the word "Christ." However, this is the explicitly Christian language that President Thomas Jefferson chose to use in official public presidential documents.

Click to see document.
 
Church in the U.S. Capitol

David Barton - 11/10/2005

Many people are surprised to learn that the United States Capitol regularly served as a church building; a practice that began even before Congress officially moved into the building and lasted until well after the Civil War. Below is a brief history of the Capitol's use as a church, and some of the prominent individuals who attended services there.

The cornerstone of the Capitol was laid by President George Washington in 1793., but it was not until the end of 1800 that Congress actually moved into the building. According to the congressional records for late November of 1800, Congress spent the first few weeks organizing the Capitol rooms, committees, locations, etc. Then, on December 4, 1800, Congress approved the use of the Capitol building as a church building. [1]

The approval of the Capitol for church was given by both the House and the Senate, with House approval being given by Speaker of the House, Theodore Sedgwick, and Senate approval being given by the President of the Senate, Thomas Jefferson. Interestingly, Jefferson's approval came while he was still officially the Vice- President but after he had just been elected President.

Significantly, the Capitol building had been used as a church even for years before it was occupied by Congress. The cornerstone for the Capitol had been laid on September 18, 1793; two years later while still under construction, the July 2, 1795, Federal Orrery newspaper of Boston reported:

City of Washington, June 19. It is with much pleasure that we discover the rising consequence of our infant city. Public worship is now regularly administered at the Capitol, every Sunday morning, at 11 o'clock by the Reverend Mr. Ralph. [2]

The reason for the original use of the Capitol as a church might initially be explained by the fact that there were no churches in the city at that time. Even a decade later in 1803, U. S. Senator John Quincy Adams confirmed: "There is no church of any denomination in this city." [3] The absence of churches in Washington eventually changed, however. As one Washington citizen reported: "For several years after the seat of government was fixed at Washington, there were but two small [wooden] churches. . . . Now, in 1837 there are 22 churches of brick or stone." [4] Yet, even after churches began proliferating across the city, religious services still continued at the Capitol until well after the Civil War and Reconstruction.

Jefferson attended church at the Capitol while he was Vice President [5] and also throughout his presidency. The first Capitol church service that Jefferson attended as President was a service preached by Jefferson's friend, the Rev. John Leland, on January 3, 1802. [6] Significantly, Jefferson attended that Capitol church service just two days after he penned his famous letter containing the "wall of separation between church and state" metaphor.

Click Here For Full Article

NOTES

[1] Debates and Proceedings in the Congress of the United States (Washington: Gales and Seaton, 1853), p. 797, Sixth Congress, December 4, 1800.

[2] Federal Orrery, Boston, July 2, 1795, p. 2.

[3] John Quincy Adams, Memoirs of John Quincy Adams, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Philadelphia: J. B. Lippincott and Company, 1874), Vol. I, p. 268, October 30, 1803.

[4] Mrs. Samuel Harrison Smith (Margaret Bayard), The First Forty Years of Washington Society, Galliard Hunt, editor (New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1906), p. 16.

[5] Bishop Claggett's (Episcopal Bishop of Maryland) letter of February 18, 1801, reveals that, as vice- President, Jefferson went to church services in the House. Available in the Maryland Diocesan Archives.

[6] William Parker Cutler and Julia Perkins Cutler, Life, Journal, and Correspondence of Rev. Manasseh Cutler (Cincinnati: Colin Robert Clarke & Co., 1888), Vol. II, p. 66, letter to Joseph Torrey, January 4, 1802. Cutler meant that Jefferson attended church on January 3, 1802, for the first time as President. Bishop Claggett's letter of February 18, 1801, already revealed that as Vice-President, Jefferson went to church services in the House.
 
Interesting point about the Capitol building being used as a church there. The arguments around whether the founding fathers religious beliefs or lack of them (and I havn't given up on this yet, just too tired to do further research at the moment) is superfluous to the argument of whether there is a "wall of seperation between church and state" (Is that quote out of context too?). I have yet to see you address that argument

So the constitution says the state shall not "establish" a religion, so does that mean they will not create a new religion, I highly doubt that was the intended meaning. The more likely meaning is that the state will not be associated with any religion, and yes freedom of religion does mean freedom from religion as in order to practice your religion (or lack of it freely) you can't have it shoved down your throat by the state.

It's also interesting to note how many 2nd amendment advocates who believe that part of the constitution is not open for interpretation at all suddenly switch and interpret the 1st amendment to fit their world view. So if the state is allowed to promote religion, which one? Even if you limit it to christianity should it be baptist? evangelical? catholic?

There are plenty of states where the religion is tied into the state, hell move to britain, our head of state is also head of our church : )
 
There was a bit of argument by Jonny that a majority of founding fathers weren't religious at all. If they were religious, as I think most probably were, what flavour of religion is still up for debate....a sort of generalised belief in some higher power, or explicitly Christian of one denomination or another?

CS, there's no way you're going to make much traction on Thomas Jefferson, except that I wrote athiest when I probably should have called him a very vague deist or maybe agnostic (I got a little mixed up with Thomas Paine when I wrote the post). Jefferson may have trotted along to services because it was expected of him, but its crystal clear he had no belief in the superstitions and mysticsim of Christianity, as his rewrite of the Bible (the Jefferson Bible) made clear...with all the miracles and other supernatural elements taken out and leaving only the decent moral philosophy bits. There is, after all, plenty to admire in "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" as a guide.

"It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it [the Apocalypse in Revelations], and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams."

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825

He also re-wrote the Koran, which must have endeared him to the Moslems of the time...LOL!

In contrast, Thomas Paine's writings influenced the Constitution but he wasn't one of the founding fathers so far as I know. He was rather more anti-God than Jefferson and it was Paine who I was originally thinking of. I always thought of him as an athiest because of the quotes, but he may have been another deist who considered that creation revealed that there must be some sort of higher power...albeit nothing that had anything to do with any human religion, all of which he considered rubbish:

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
-- Thomas Paine, (1737-1809), The Age of Reason, pt. 1, "The Author's Profession of Faith" (1794), quoted from The Columbia Dictionary of Quotations

It is from the Bible that man has learned cruelty, rapine and murder; for the belief of a cruel God makes a cruel man.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom from the Writings of Thomas Paine

There is scarcely any part of science, or anything in nature, which those imposters and blasphemers of science, called priests, as well Christians as Jews, have not, at some time or other, perverted, or sought to pervert to the purpose of superstition and falsehood.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom from the Writings of Thomas Paine

Each of these churches shows certain books, which they call revelation, or the word of God. The Jews say that their word of God was given by God to Moses, face to face; the Christians say that their word of God came by divine inspiration; and the Turks say that their word of God, the Koran, was brought by an angel from heaven. Each of these churches accuses the others of unbelief; and, for my own part, I disbelieve them all. (Age of Reason)

Of all the tyrannies that afflict mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst. Every other species of tyranny is limited to the world we live in, but this attempts a stride beyond the grave and seeks to pursue us into eternity.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom from the Writings of Thomas Paine

What is it the New Testament teaches us? To believe that the Almighty committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married; and the belief of this debauchery is called faith.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1794)

The Christian system of religion is an outrage on common sense.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom from the Writings of Thomas Paine

The story of the redemption will not stand examination. That man should redeem himself from the sin of eating an apple by committing a murder on Jesus Christ, is the strangest system of religion ever set up.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom from the Writings of Thomas Paine

The Church was resolved to have a New Testament, and as, after the lapse of more than three hundred years, no handwriting could be proved or disproved, the Church, which like former impostors had then gotten possession of the State, had everything its own way. It invented creeds, such as that called the Apostle's Creed, the Nicean Creed, the Athanasian Creed, and out of the loads of rubbish that were presented it voted four to be Gospels, and others to be Epistles, as we now find them arranged.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom from the Writings of Thomas Paine

Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon that the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and for my own part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1794)

Yet this is trash that the Church imposes upon the world as the Word of God; this is the collection of lies and contradictions called the Holy Bible! this is the rubbish called Revealed Religion!
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom from the Writings of Thomas Paine
 
Just to clarify, I wasn't trying to suggest that the majority of the founding fathers were deists or agnostic/atheists, simply that at least some of these were, it would have been amazing back then for there to have been that many atheists lol.

No bootie the conversation hasn't drifted off from whether the founding fathers were deists or not, the conversation had drifted off to whether the founding fathers were deists, they could have been bhuddists for all it matters, the constitution still says the state shouldn't take sides when it comes to religion.
 
It seems to me the conversation has drifted. The post was actually about taking down a monument placed on a veteran memorial site. Now the discussion revolves around the founding fathers (of the US) being Christians or not.
 
What surprises me more and so far i couldnt find an explanation ,is why when Christian faith or its symbols are being ''attacked'' (in one way or another)the so called progressive minds or freedom loving people or whatever they are concidering to be, dont pay any kind of attention but when another religion's (Islam,Budism,Judaism) rights,claims etc are discussed or attacked or whatever they are so keen to defend this other faith and to give their full support to it.
To get my point think if it was a Muslim monument that was to be demolished what kind of reactions would have been,most probably now it would have been a breaking story to all those mainstream news agensies.
PS I ve used the term ''attacked'' as by putting down the symbol of the cross(which is the universal symbol of Christian faith) u are attacking in a way the Christian faith.
PS2 I also think that if this memorial didnt have a cross but a tombstone or a statue or whatever the people that now are trying to put it donw would be much more flexible about preserving a memorial with common funds and in common property.
PS3 And little food for thought:what if it was a giant Star of David for the US soldiers of Jewish origin and faith thaT fell during WWII and someone was saying ''we will put it down'' for the exact same reasons.He would have been characterised as anti semitic and extreme right wing racist or not?
 
Im with Cargol there. I agree 100%.

For example.. the outcry about the mosque at Ground Zero.. if the shoe was on the other foot would a Christian church be allowed in Saudi Arabia.

Saudi Arabia allows Christians to enter the country as foreign workers for temporary work, but does not allow them to practice their faith openly, because of that Christians generally only worship in secret within private homes<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-state.gov_2-2"></sup>. Items and articles belonging to religions other than Islam are prohibited<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-state.gov_2-3"></sup>. These include Bibles, crucifixes, statues, carvings, items with religious symbols, and others<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-state.gov_2-4"></sup>.
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But that's the point bootie! Saudi Arabia wouldn't let you build a church in mecca, and that Is why america is so much of a better country than Saudi Arabia, Saudi Arabia shows you what happens when you tie your state into religion.

As to cargols point, perhaps there would be more of an outcry if it was a different religions symbology, but it shouldn't be,
 
... if it was a Muslim monument that was to be demolished what kind of reactions would have been
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I for one would rejoice and Thank God that my fellow countrymen had finally woken up!
Lord Bane
 
Christian Soldier said:
Howdy McIvan,
In your post you mention it was Johnsy but it was not our friend from down under. It was Jonny our learned friend from the U.K. Simple mistake but I just wanted credit to be given where credit is due.
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I'm glad that's cleared up, as I don't get involved in religious arguments, because I don't believe in any religion.

As to the problem with the memorial, why not just pull down the cross and erect a bronze statue of a soldier. You'd stop the court actions and silly arguments, still have a great memorial to the fallen heroes of past wars, and I'm sure you'd find a church nearby that would love the cross in their front yard. Problem solved and the bull sh*t stops:peace:
 
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