Question for the Players

F

Fredrocker

Guest
In one of the battles for Colonel Nosov's March on Germany, I am contemplating the following...

  • Battle Starts with Allied Player having an FO and a shit load of 203mm Arty and 300mm Rockets to drop on the town...
  • After ten minutes (or maybe 15) the town should be pretty much a shamble...
  • At that point All the German Troops (Axis is AI, as this is a campaign) come in as reinforcements exactly in the town as I would have had them for a proper defensive setup...
  • The Allies would also receive there troops in setup positions as reinforcements and then the real battle will begin...
Here is my Questions....
  1. As the allied player would it not be right to allow the player to perform the setup on his own troops.
  2. Would destroying the town with massive amounts of Arty offset the ability to setup one's troops.
  3. Some of the German Troops setups might become 'questionable' as maybe a squad on the 4th floor of a building now arrives and the building is rubble, do you think might ruin the battle...
Anywho, just looking at doing something a little different and was looking for some comments.... thanx

Here is an overview of the map

shamble.jpg
 
Fredrocker said:
In one of the battles for Colonel Nosov's March on Germany, I am contemplating the following...

  • Battle Starts with Allied Player having an FO and a shit load of 203mm Arty and 300mm Rockets to drop on the town...
  • After ten minutes (or maybe 15) the town should be pretty much a shamble...
  • At that point All the German Troops (Axis is AI, as this is a campaign) come in as reinforcements exactly in the town as I would have had them for a proper defensive setup...
  • The Allies would also receive there troops in setup positions as reinforcements and then the real battle will begin...
Here is my Questions....
  1. As the allied player would it not be right to allow the player to perform the setup on his own troops.
  2. Would destroying the town with massive amounts of Arty offset the ability to setup one's troops.
  3. Some of the German Troops setups might become 'questionable' as maybe a squad on the 4th floor of a building now arrives and the building is rubble, do you think might ruin the battle...
Anywho, just looking at doing something a little different and was looking for some comments.... thanx
Click to expand...

Nice idea having the ability to watch the artillery barrages. I for myself would like that. But I really doubt the majority of players would like that also. One of the most things people complain about in scenarios is that it sometimes take to mich time (e. g. maneuvering units) before the action happens. I like it, other don`t.

Regarding Question 1: If the time limit is long enough and the zone were reeinforcements arrive is big enough the Allied player should still be able to set up positions he wants. Or you could have them set his units up before the game starts, but remind him in the breifing not to advance over a specific phase line until the barrage is lifted. Probably you could implement another artiilery (storywise the FO called the wrong coordinates) strike along the phase line to punish the Allied player if he disobeys this order.

Regarding Question 2: Allied troops should stay out the effective target area of the artillery barrage, so there is no problem I can see

Regarding Question 3: This one might be the biggest drawback. After such heavy barrages the village itself should be very destroyed. Setting up an effective defense could really be hard as you never know how the destruction looks like....
 
I'm actually doing the exact same thing with my Carpiquet Campaign for two of the starting missions. It's probably the easiest way to represent the tail end of a creeping barrage in my case. During Operation Windsor the barrage that took place was described as a 'crescendo' of artillery falling on the village prior to the Canadians making entry. One historical factor I have in my favour is the Germans in Carpiquet used cellars and basements to ride out the barrage. CM currently doesn't model that so I've 'cheated' to best ensure a good mission for the player.

The problem game wise is if I did it by the book and had the OpFor on the map during the barrage the impact on them as casualties varies dramatically which can skew the mission either way in terms of difficulty. As a scenario designer I can't decide that important point. Essentially it becomes luck of the draw if the mission is a pushover or a brick wall of MG42's. Doing this 'gamey' trick ensure the scenario designer can set up a decent AI plan and make sure that both sides are roughly balanced for the fight ahead. The barrage will still vary other factors considerably like damaged buildings, walls, craters for cover etc. However having some of the map pre-damaged is also a good idea I think.

I'm outlining in my briefings and the tacmap where the arty needs to go (along with TRP's on map as central aim points for area fire missions), with the narrative/briefing outlining this is a preplanned operation so 'follow orders dammit!'

I outline:
- Where (via TRP's)
- How many off map assets to each
- Rate of fire (in all cases use all ammo at max speed)

This also allows me to work out a good estimate of the amount of time it takes for the arty missions to be carried out so I can time the 'reinforcements' accordingly and minimise any exploitation window where a cheeky player may advance unopposed. Initial troop deployments are also key to ensure there are no enemy 'pop-ins' once the artillery missions end.

I think one of my missions for the Carpiquet campaign has 20 pieces of off map support including naval guns for use as a massive pre-deployment bombardment.
 
OK... @Ithikial

I went ahead and tested all morning on rocket fire on the town... I have it so that the rocket fire ends everytime between 9m15s into battle and 9m40s... so the reinforcements are scheduled for the 10 minute exact mark.... Now to start testing different units popping into town as a reinforcement and starting from 'whatever is left'...

before and after screenies of 9m30s of rocket fire damage... :)

beforeafter.jpg
 
I have to say my thoughts agree pretty much with Strachwitz, I think the questions are about the type of player playing the game. Anyone with an understanding of what we are simulating will get what you have done. Game players won't - and won't like too much unpredictability - It strikes me as one of the key points in the later WW2 games especially Brit/US v German that we try to set up and fight equal battles with two opposing forces that - man for man (or tank for tank) are not equal. However I suspect not everyone would relish just trying to do better than historically to gain a win :)

I admire you both for trying tp bring realism and balance to the scenarios - I'm from a school that would say - get on with it - its realistic... ho hum...

Having said all that I do remember as a young guy playing a large MechWar 2 game (modern well 1980's combat in Germany - US v Warsaw pact) and the only part we played was almost a full days work - the Russian divisional artillery strike on a US Cavalry position. By the time we stopped working everything out no one had the stomach for continuing - especially the poor US Cavalry commander...
 
Hey Ted, think you missed the point.... the Arty barrage comes before any troops show up on the map.... and I agree with you, I don't like huge arty barrages hitting my troops, it does detract a lot from the game.... :)
 
Fredrocker said:
Hey Ted, think you missed the point.... the Arty barrage comes before any troops show up on the map.... and I agree with you, I don't like huge arty barrages hitting my troops, it does detract a lot from the game.... :)
Click to expand...
Hello Fred .....Ha that's better thanks for putting me straight ...Have A good One Mate
 
Ok here is how I am going to handle it... I am lucky since this is a campaign, and I always include a PDF Commanders Manual with the campaign I can place the below graphic in the campaign notes for the Lutsk battle... The labels on the screenie below are also Labels within the game itself (Just red and smaller...lol)... I renamed the TRP's in the editor (8 Trp's and 8 Arty Unit Dispositions), but for the life of me I cant find where that information comes out within game... I was hoping when clickin on the TRP but alas I must be missing something...

artydisposition.jpg



The Axis troops that come in as reinforcements on turn 10 seem to work fine, if positioned on the third floor and the building has collapsed they appear in the rubble in tack. Als I put some destroyed and burning vehicle in at the 5 minute mark which came out cool as the the smoke dissipates from the first barrage all of a sudden vehicle smoke starts to rise from the area... then the second barrage hits around 6min45sec in and last about 2.5 minutes... So something different and I believe it will work...
 
Wow, looks brilliant (and :eek:).

I'd say your plan sounds good to me. Whilst I'm all for historical accuracy (I came to wargaming/simulations via a deep interest in military history) and I can enjoy the occassional game where you can't win, I prefer to have such scenarios as 1-off's you can choose to play.

On the question of whether the defensive setupp would be fair, I have 2 comments.
1) Who said life (esp war) was fair.
2) It recreates the shock and confusion such a barrage would cause, thereby heightening realism.
3) To balance the scenario careful placement (and valuation) of VP's could help.​

Play testing would help with this, I'd offer but don't own CMRT.

p.s. Wish this was in CMBN (Can't afford more than 1 of CMFI or CM Bastogne/Ardennes sometime this year :) )
 
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