Should Germany have put all their effort into the mass producing and refining of the Panzer IV as their go to tank instead of constantly churning out newer and 'bigger' models with teething problems (early Panthers, Tigers etc)?
[WHAT IF #5] GERMANY AND THE PANZER IV
- Thread starter Bootie
- Start date
Should Germany have put all their effort into the mass producing and refining of the Panzer IV as their go to tank instead of constantly churning out newer and 'bigger' models with teething problems (early Panthers, Tigers etc)?
The Russian T-34 design would have been the way to go, due to its armour design. Would this not have made the panzer design obsolete?
You obviously haven't watched Bootie and my battle playing 'The Passage' in CMRT.
I posed the question in another thread. Reserve my answer until a few others have chipped in some thoughts.
L
Lt. Smash
Guest
Interesting question and I am not truly a student of German armor production like some of you guys are. If the Germans could have truly massed produced and sustained production of the PzIV, it would have provided them the equivalent to the Sherman tank: quantity over quality.
The problem is that the Germans could never win the production battle against the Allies. Even if the Germans could have converted all conquered lands into industrial might, I do not think it could have won the war, only delayed the outcome. The Americans and Russians factories would still have been able to turn out more tanks than the Germans.
Moreover, this argument assumes a linear historical path...the only change is PzIVs instead of big cats. Of course, the reality is that the Allies would have adjusted their strategy to accommodate PzIVs flooding the battlefield. Maybe they would have upgunned their Shermans and T-34s faster than they did historically or introduced heavy tanks instead. Maybe they would have developed more powerful infantry anti-tank weapons. Maybe they would have invented a new anti-tank mine. Maybe they would have invented a totally new weapon to deal with the threat. And, regardless, they certainly would have adjusted their battlefield tactics to deal with the increased numbers of German tanks in all theaters.
The problem is that the Germans could never win the production battle against the Allies. Even if the Germans could have converted all conquered lands into industrial might, I do not think it could have won the war, only delayed the outcome. The Americans and Russians factories would still have been able to turn out more tanks than the Germans.
Moreover, this argument assumes a linear historical path...the only change is PzIVs instead of big cats. Of course, the reality is that the Allies would have adjusted their strategy to accommodate PzIVs flooding the battlefield. Maybe they would have upgunned their Shermans and T-34s faster than they did historically or introduced heavy tanks instead. Maybe they would have developed more powerful infantry anti-tank weapons. Maybe they would have invented a new anti-tank mine. Maybe they would have invented a totally new weapon to deal with the threat. And, regardless, they certainly would have adjusted their battlefield tactics to deal with the increased numbers of German tanks in all theaters.
You bitch... you promised to never mention that fiasco again!You obviously haven't watched Bootie and my battle playing 'The Passage' in CMRT.
The main mistake of the so called german leadership was to plan for a quick war only. The second main failure was to led their soldiers down as the winter came. The third the political loudmouth game between Stalin and Hitler. The russians made what the americans did in the cold war. They entrapped the Germans in an economy race. That as introduction and reminder. So if the Pz-IV was mass produced or not isn´t the actual question. In fact it was first thought to re-fit the Pz-III because he was seen as the better main battle tank. The Pz-IV in its origins was a support tank. He should add firepower against soft targets. He wasn´t thought of as main battle tank. Why he became it nevertheless? Because his turret and chassis were able to carry the 75mm long barrelled gun. The Pz-III wasn´t able to do so.
Now to the actual question. The Pz-IV was a fine tank. Contrary to the movies after war he was feared as well so far as I know. But that is only hearsay from relatives of veterans. Nevertheless he was an expensive tank seen by time produce, material and price. Not only that the capacities of Germany were fully used to capacity. A further problem was to get iron/steel. If the neutral Sweden wouldn´t have been with its iron/steel sendings Germany would never have had get started the way it did. So Germany had to fall back on quality products to level out the greater production rate of Russia - it didn´t have the opportunity for mass production in allied scale. America was no part in that considerations since one hoped to get allied with America or at least establish a military neutrality. So the "new" Pz-IV should be able to destroy the feared T-34 on "long" distance so the canon of the T-34 wouldn´t have a good chance to hit and/or kill. That he did bravely.
Since the production rate of Germany was fully used to capacity the manufacturers promised better tanks. They couldn´t raise the mass - and even the quality. So better tanks had to become heavier if You wanted a better armor. They had to become heavier since stronger/bigger guns were implemented and even the mechanics for the turrets were heavier and so on and so forth. Now the planning for the war came into play again. Blitzkrieg! The war should already have ended before a longer time. No raising of output possible, facilities and factories not built underground, the allied air superiority came into play... So material got more and more expensive. And the heavier tanks? Were even more expensive in every aspect. But they were needed since the T-34 wasn´t the only threat anymore. IS-2, Firefly, ISUs and SUs, Sherman and Churchill variants were all able to kill the Pz-IV. This added with the restricted mass production capacity negated the sense of the Pz-IV mass production. That was the "hour of birth" for the E-series where many parts were shared with the other platforms of this series.
So my answer is clear NO! Germany shouldn´t have invested in mass production of Pz-IV. They should have earlier get started thoughts about the E-Series or similar. And they should have went a bit further yet and use that procedure for producing planes. And they should have started a strenuous effort to get the most important facilities and factories and civil shelters underground. That thoughts came only a bit too late. Otherwise, who knows, maybe that would have been the bit of time to change the tactis and develop the needed technique.
But all this was nullified as the Americans changed the war - Little Boy and Fat Man. Mass production and so on - obsolete.
Greetings
Now to the actual question. The Pz-IV was a fine tank. Contrary to the movies after war he was feared as well so far as I know. But that is only hearsay from relatives of veterans. Nevertheless he was an expensive tank seen by time produce, material and price. Not only that the capacities of Germany were fully used to capacity. A further problem was to get iron/steel. If the neutral Sweden wouldn´t have been with its iron/steel sendings Germany would never have had get started the way it did. So Germany had to fall back on quality products to level out the greater production rate of Russia - it didn´t have the opportunity for mass production in allied scale. America was no part in that considerations since one hoped to get allied with America or at least establish a military neutrality. So the "new" Pz-IV should be able to destroy the feared T-34 on "long" distance so the canon of the T-34 wouldn´t have a good chance to hit and/or kill. That he did bravely.
Since the production rate of Germany was fully used to capacity the manufacturers promised better tanks. They couldn´t raise the mass - and even the quality. So better tanks had to become heavier if You wanted a better armor. They had to become heavier since stronger/bigger guns were implemented and even the mechanics for the turrets were heavier and so on and so forth. Now the planning for the war came into play again. Blitzkrieg! The war should already have ended before a longer time. No raising of output possible, facilities and factories not built underground, the allied air superiority came into play... So material got more and more expensive. And the heavier tanks? Were even more expensive in every aspect. But they were needed since the T-34 wasn´t the only threat anymore. IS-2, Firefly, ISUs and SUs, Sherman and Churchill variants were all able to kill the Pz-IV. This added with the restricted mass production capacity negated the sense of the Pz-IV mass production. That was the "hour of birth" for the E-series where many parts were shared with the other platforms of this series.
So my answer is clear NO! Germany shouldn´t have invested in mass production of Pz-IV. They should have earlier get started thoughts about the E-Series or similar. And they should have went a bit further yet and use that procedure for producing planes. And they should have started a strenuous effort to get the most important facilities and factories and civil shelters underground. That thoughts came only a bit too late. Otherwise, who knows, maybe that would have been the bit of time to change the tactis and develop the needed technique.
But all this was nullified as the Americans changed the war - Little Boy and Fat Man. Mass production and so on - obsolete.
Greetings
Z
zaraza
Guest
I believe this is the key. No matter how good German tanks were, USA and Russians could win by pure numbers.
But, if we are talking about 'ifs', i think that Pz4 would not win the war - Tiger 2 would. That tank was wrongfully declared as "slow heavy beast", but in fact it was quite fast and agile for it's size....However, production, logistics, quality of parts were bad and rendered it almost useless....
Another candidate is of course Panther.
B
Big Joe
Guest
Good point about the steel Sempi. Yes, putting limited steel to engineer better tanks makes sense. Uniformity might have been better done, "the Panzer Divisions became a Disney Land of assorted vehicles" a quote, in general, from a book that has stuck with me for years.
T
Trakks
Guest
My understanding is that Germany was slowly replacing the Panzer IV with Panthers because they could no longer upgrade the armor and gun and that a cost reduced version of the Panzer IV was going to be produced for light duties that would replace all previous light tank designs, which were also badly outdated by that time. The Panzers I-III along with the 35(t), 38(t) with all of their variants were even more badly in need of replacing than the Panzer IV was.
Should Germany have put all their effort into the mass producing and refining of the Panzer IV as their go to tank instead of constantly churning out newer and 'bigger' models with teething problems (early Panthers, Tigers etc)?
The Panther didn't cost much more to build than a Panzer IV, so it was a better value proposition since it was technically superior in most ways and had more potential for upgrades. It also shared many components with the Tiger, which helped to keep development and production costs down. The Panther's reliability issues would have been worked out eventually if Germany had been given enough time and the Germans also had another advantage. Their crews were better trained than most. The stories I read all say that the Russians in particular, had poorly trained crews. The tank commander went through extensive training, but the rest of the crew's training was only enough so that they could function, but not at a very high level. The dire need to get more tanks onto the battlefield quickly forced them to rush their training. The German tank crews were all thoroughly trained from the lowliest privates to the highest officers and functioned at a much higher level of efficiency than other country's tank crews. So even though the Panthers weren't all that reliable at first, they could still take on a superior force of T34's and win.
Germany did get carried away with the Supertank theme, though. The Tiger II should probably have been the biggest tank they built. It was more than sufficient for killing any other tank they could conceivably encounter and the armor was VERY bouncy, although the 88 did still have some difficulty coping with the frontal armor of the KV-1, an upgrade to a 10.5cm gun would have fixed that. Tanks bigger than that would have been too expensive and required too much in the way of time and resources and would use too much fuel to be practical.
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Hello TRAKKS! I have to disagree a bit. The crews of german Pz were highly trained - right! But only until 43 or maybe early 44 so far as I know. After that the supply in every aspect (not only crews) were more or less forced. Means quality couldn´t get holded on the high level one was used to. Not for nothing Russia was seen as a shredder where Germany´s best were sacrificed - both, men and material. The crews of the earlier stages of war were trained so that every crew member could replace every other crew member - if the radio operator was hit then, maybe, the loader overtook his part and vice versa etc. That changed as one needed more and faster replacements. From then on the most crew members were only trained in their function and not able anymore to work properly in every position of the crew. That means not that they weren´t good trained in their field of duty - that they were. But now if a crew member failed/dropped out it couldn´t just get replaced.
Furthermore german battle formations were given a time to growing together before they were sent to war. That was one of the main advantages before every other formation of every other country to this time. Especially Russia sent its troops into battle without much of that. But Russia had the opportunity to do so. Germany not! But that, the growing together, wasn´t possible anymore. That and the missing universality of training is in my eyes the main reason what broke the morale and will of the fighting forces of Germany.
Greetings
Furthermore german battle formations were given a time to growing together before they were sent to war. That was one of the main advantages before every other formation of every other country to this time. Especially Russia sent its troops into battle without much of that. But Russia had the opportunity to do so. Germany not! But that, the growing together, wasn´t possible anymore. That and the missing universality of training is in my eyes the main reason what broke the morale and will of the fighting forces of Germany.
Greetings