It's a bit difficult to figure out LOS from the screenshots, but it seems the forest is not so dense.. still, is he getting enough standoff distance for those MGs to be really useful? Seems like the front lines are very close.
Drifter Man vs Titan DAR
- Thread starter Drifter Man
- Start date
K
KGBoy
Guest
Ohhh, looks like a line in sand! If not, he'll have to pull BHQ back...
Can't think that armour has LOS on your LF crossing. If you believe in Arty, a rush might be the play?
Can't think that armour has LOS on your LF crossing. If you believe in Arty, a rush might be the play?
K
KGBoy
Guest
If the idea is to jam and cram with arty, maybe it works?
K
KGBoy
Guest
Looking at the RF and the contact count, that may be the harder going?
Trees are a major pain for the attacker on this map, greatly reducing the usefulness of tanks. It is hard to get unobstructed line of fire at more than 200 meters. When I was defending against Titan on the same map, a great portion of his area fire from tanks exploded prematurely in the woods, undoubtedly causing some friendly casualties. This is why I think that T-34 is a better choice here than the heavy assault guns: when a 152mm HE explodes in the wrong place, it can cause a lot of trouble.
So, I could open fire at that bunker but after a turn of observing my shells exploding in the woods, Titan would catch the whiff of what I am trying to achieve and evacuate the bunker, in my opinion. There are some ok angles but they are inaccessible at the moment. I will keep looking for opportunities though.
@KGBoy I'm having some trouble following your ideas, but I hope this will answer your points
- The wooden MG bunker is on one of the objectives and Titan is certainly determined to hold it, but he does have the room in the back the map to retreat if things don't go his way.
- The tank on the central hill has partial control of the crossing, but its LOS is poor (see re @Bulletpoint above) and I have been able to cross by the left edge of the map without any interference. However, the tank can fire on parts of the German side of the road once I get there. I now have a mortar in position to lay smoke around the tank if needed (and if the mortar survives there)
- In terms of arty, I have 9 on-map medium mortars and a handful of light 50mm ones, which are good at taking out individual positions, but otherwise all my arty landed on Turn 1. By the way, I am still waiting for Titan's artillery. Not even a mortar round, yet.
- Actually, most of the right flank contacts shown on the last map are either dead or have retreated. The right flank is complicated mainly by the AT bunker. I can't go forward because it area fires everything. But I am working on it, stay tuned
Obviously I can't see your lanes of fire on that bunker, but if you were able to get into a position to safely shoot at it with a tank without the chance of trees intercepting the shells, whether he realises what you are up to would probably be irrelevant as if you are able to keep the bunker under constant uninterrupted fire, everyone inside will be suppressed and unable to evacuate - then it's only a matter of time till you thread the needle.
Could still be bait of course, but you're in a better postion to judge that than I.
Could still be bait of course, but you're in a better postion to judge that than I.
I don't think it is bait, but the part with shooting at it without trees intercepting the shells is the difficult one.
Turns 23-27. No map this time! Just a brief summary and a few videos. On the left flank I moved one platoon from the 2nd Company across the road by the edge of the map and told them to stop before cresting the hill. I expect defenses on the reverse slope, covered by a base of fire on the next hill behind it. That's what I had prepared when defending against Titan on the same map. My plan here is to wait until I have enough forces for the push, hit the reverse slope with 82mm mortars on TRP, then attack with infantry followed by a T-34 that will shell the second hill - and hopefully not get schrecked in the woods.
In the center of the map I am dealing with two MG positions. One enemy team took heavy MG fire (gotta love those .50 cals) and retreated, leaving 4 casualties. The second team, in foxholes, is protecting the AT bunker. I suppressed it with MG and mortar fire and attacked with a team from 2nd Platoon, 1st Company, covered by a sniper team. The snipers took out one pesky LMG at the crossroads, which had been causing me a lot of problems, but the infantry team can't seem to hit a thing. They're 1st Company - "Rattled Regulars" - good for scouting and taking fire, not for much else. In the middle of the action, they find they're sitting in a minefield. They are lucky: nobody explodes.
On the right I first tried to take out the last surviving guy in the woods - a German company commander or his assistant. Everybody else was killed, but this invisible guy with an MP40 is successfully holding the line. The first push was thwarted by area fire from the second AT bunker, while another team that was trying to flank the MP40 triggered a minefield. I dispatched sappers to deal with the minefield and a T-34 to deal with the bunker - I could see I wasn't getting anywhere as long as the bunker is there. I found a location from where I could area target the ground behind the bunker without getting spotted. The result was devastating. The first shot hit trees, but the second one hit the bunker, killing the crew. Three more shells hit the bunker, two of them penetrating. The last one set it on fire.
Scratch one bunker. However, the MP40 guy does not care and continues his rampage. I'll need to resort to some harsh measures. Such as asking him politely to leave.
Own casualties are 44 men. 1st Company was hit the hardest, with 34 casualties. That was their job, but now I am replacing them reluctantly with 2nd and 3rd Companies (veterans +1) to keep moving. Titan's confirmed casualties stand at 64 men.
In the center of the map I am dealing with two MG positions. One enemy team took heavy MG fire (gotta love those .50 cals) and retreated, leaving 4 casualties. The second team, in foxholes, is protecting the AT bunker. I suppressed it with MG and mortar fire and attacked with a team from 2nd Platoon, 1st Company, covered by a sniper team. The snipers took out one pesky LMG at the crossroads, which had been causing me a lot of problems, but the infantry team can't seem to hit a thing. They're 1st Company - "Rattled Regulars" - good for scouting and taking fire, not for much else. In the middle of the action, they find they're sitting in a minefield. They are lucky: nobody explodes.
On the right I first tried to take out the last surviving guy in the woods - a German company commander or his assistant. Everybody else was killed, but this invisible guy with an MP40 is successfully holding the line. The first push was thwarted by area fire from the second AT bunker, while another team that was trying to flank the MP40 triggered a minefield. I dispatched sappers to deal with the minefield and a T-34 to deal with the bunker - I could see I wasn't getting anywhere as long as the bunker is there. I found a location from where I could area target the ground behind the bunker without getting spotted. The result was devastating. The first shot hit trees, but the second one hit the bunker, killing the crew. Three more shells hit the bunker, two of them penetrating. The last one set it on fire.
Scratch one bunker. However, the MP40 guy does not care and continues his rampage. I'll need to resort to some harsh measures. Such as asking him politely to leave.
Own casualties are 44 men. 1st Company was hit the hardest, with 34 casualties. That was their job, but now I am replacing them reluctantly with 2nd and 3rd Companies (veterans +1) to keep moving. Titan's confirmed casualties stand at 64 men.
L
Larsen
Guest
There is probably ATG somewhere close by... in case if you decide to check the penetrating qualities of 85mm HE shells against the said bunker.
Yes, there could be - with a rather narrow field of fire, but it is a possibility.
Thanks, they deserve a badge. These units were formed in response to the German Kanonenfutter Kompanien, and employed similar tactics.
Comrade Stepnov - the squadless squad leader I mentioned earlier - took umbrage to being called a wimp, though. He is a regular, and a rattled one at that, but a wimp? No way!
As a squad leader, maybe he was informed of the presence of a nearby blocking detachment.
He fears the wrath of comrade Drifter more than German machineguns.
With 'comrades' such as these, who needs enemies?
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I just saw this thread for the first time. Very interesting.
A collection of random thoughts:
1) Like you, I carefully track enemy casualties. From long experience, I have found that enemy losses are usually 50% higher than what you count yourself. So you are likely doing quite well.
2) As you know, Titan likes to move around on turn 1 and push men forward to conduct ambushes. Those forward ambushes are the start of a delaying action to play for time. Your turn 1 rocket strikes probably caused lots of losses. So the +50% estimate above may actually be low. Titan picks up his dead and wounded, so you probably won't see the casualties that you casued with rocket strikes.
3) Titan has always been an excellent mobile defender. But then he screws himself by taking AT bunkers which he must stubbornly defend the flanks of. You may win the battle right here by forcing him to fight.
4) Titan likes command unit MP40s/MP44s for ambushes. Unfortunately, command and control in CM is not all that great. Losing leaders does not really affect a player much if they have motivated troops. It is a shortcoming in Combat Mission, IMHO. Perhaps your testing might tell a different story, but I have never really cared if leaders died with the exception of battalion commanders where I THINK I have noticed a negative morale effect.
5) Betcha that he has trucks/halftracks that provide him with tactical mobility AND lots of 9mm and 7.92K ammo. That is the other Titan hallmark......SMG and assault rifle armed infantry with literally truckloads of ammo.
I would say that you are tactically winning by a greater margin than you think. Then again, time is a factor too.
A collection of random thoughts:
1) Like you, I carefully track enemy casualties. From long experience, I have found that enemy losses are usually 50% higher than what you count yourself. So you are likely doing quite well.
2) As you know, Titan likes to move around on turn 1 and push men forward to conduct ambushes. Those forward ambushes are the start of a delaying action to play for time. Your turn 1 rocket strikes probably caused lots of losses. So the +50% estimate above may actually be low. Titan picks up his dead and wounded, so you probably won't see the casualties that you casued with rocket strikes.
3) Titan has always been an excellent mobile defender. But then he screws himself by taking AT bunkers which he must stubbornly defend the flanks of. You may win the battle right here by forcing him to fight.
4) Titan likes command unit MP40s/MP44s for ambushes. Unfortunately, command and control in CM is not all that great. Losing leaders does not really affect a player much if they have motivated troops. It is a shortcoming in Combat Mission, IMHO. Perhaps your testing might tell a different story, but I have never really cared if leaders died with the exception of battalion commanders where I THINK I have noticed a negative morale effect.
5) Betcha that he has trucks/halftracks that provide him with tactical mobility AND lots of 9mm and 7.92K ammo. That is the other Titan hallmark......SMG and assault rifle armed infantry with literally truckloads of ammo.
I would say that you are tactically winning by a greater margin than you think. Then again, time is a factor too.
Completely agree. I always try my very best to keep command and control, but I know I'm kidding myself, since CM doesn't really take it serious. The only time it really matters is when you ship a target marker for an enemy tank to your tank before engaging it.
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Turn 30 update. Have been resisting the temptation all day to look at the latest turn from Titan, to prevent Turn 31 information from affecting my Turn 30 summary here...
Titan started with a line of defense held by a mix of HMG teams and HQ units, and this has caused considerable delays - in addition to my usual tendency to be very careful and avoid unnecessary casualties. Nevertheless, I have been able to break/push back his defenders with heavy losses: Titan has 76 confirmed casualties at this point. I agree that this is necessarily an underestimate and the real number can be much higher. Although I don't think he has been able to pick up many wounded from the fighting, by now he has long cleared the casualties from Turn 1 artillery - I estimate there could have been 20-50, depending on how pessimistic/optimistic I want to be. Still, he has retained maybe 70% of his manpower and all his armor. Currently I am aware of one tank contact and three light armor contacts around the center of the map. One of the three light armor pieces turned out to be a Stummel halftrack. None of these has opened fire so far and I have been trying to stay out of their lines of fire.
So yes, I think I am doing quite well overall unless I get slowed down even more. In my experience, if I feel I am doing okay, I am actually doing great in the battle - but I also know that things can take the wrong turn very quickly.
I agree that with motivated troops the loss of HQ units perhaps becomes unimportant. Like @Bulletpoint, I use my HQs as I am supposed to, trying to keep the C2 network up and supporting the morale of the troops in contact. I simply wouldn't feel it right to send the HQ's forward and sacrifice them in ambushes, leaving the troops to fight without their officers. But we can see these things differently and it is fine with me if Titan chooses to use them this way.
30 minutes into the battle, Three directions of advance have formed:
The first 30 minutes of the battle - 4x accelerated video taken from overhead:
I always find that keeping track in detail of what is going on in the battle gives me more awareness in general. By watching the action phase 10 times, I notice those small but important things like an unit walking into a minefield, enemy spotting round falling etc. It helps, but I don't do it always.
Titan started with a line of defense held by a mix of HMG teams and HQ units, and this has caused considerable delays - in addition to my usual tendency to be very careful and avoid unnecessary casualties. Nevertheless, I have been able to break/push back his defenders with heavy losses: Titan has 76 confirmed casualties at this point. I agree that this is necessarily an underestimate and the real number can be much higher. Although I don't think he has been able to pick up many wounded from the fighting, by now he has long cleared the casualties from Turn 1 artillery - I estimate there could have been 20-50, depending on how pessimistic/optimistic I want to be. Still, he has retained maybe 70% of his manpower and all his armor. Currently I am aware of one tank contact and three light armor contacts around the center of the map. One of the three light armor pieces turned out to be a Stummel halftrack. None of these has opened fire so far and I have been trying to stay out of their lines of fire.
So yes, I think I am doing quite well overall unless I get slowed down even more. In my experience, if I feel I am doing okay, I am actually doing great in the battle - but I also know that things can take the wrong turn very quickly.
I agree that with motivated troops the loss of HQ units perhaps becomes unimportant. Like @Bulletpoint, I use my HQs as I am supposed to, trying to keep the C2 network up and supporting the morale of the troops in contact. I simply wouldn't feel it right to send the HQ's forward and sacrifice them in ambushes, leaving the troops to fight without their officers. But we can see these things differently and it is fine with me if Titan chooses to use them this way.
30 minutes into the battle, Three directions of advance have formed:
- 1st and 2nd Platoons of the 2nd Company are lined up in the woods at the northern edge of the map. There is a hill crest running through the woods here and the troops are just below. I know my opponent is defending it - I ran into a HMG position in the woods - and I have seen some movement here, incoming infantry. This could be a counterattack or simply reinforcements, because I have been building up my forces here for several minutes and my opponent knows it. I do not mind if he has a large force here - I am calling a mortar strike - 2 mortars, 50 rounds - on a TRP on the far side of the hill and will proceed with the attack in a few minutes. My main worry are support weapons potentially placed on the next hill behind it. These can fire on the hill crest, whereas I can't bring in much support. I am also concerned that my opponent could land artillery on my staging area.
- 2nd Platoon of the 1st "RR" Company reached the central hill and attacked the German positions around the AT Bunker, but failed to finish the job and is now too exhausted/low on morale. 3rd Platoon, 3rd Company will take over. I don't want to take the top of the hill - it is a kill zone - but I will probe the northern and southern slopes as the next step.
- In the south, 1st Platoon (SMG), 1st "RR" company has led the way, taking heavy casualties from enemy ambushes, mines etc. The AT bunker blocking this avenue of attack was destroyed, but now a Stummel halftrack is blocking it instead. 2nd Platoon, 3rd Company stands ready to take over. Sappers are marking the mine fields.
The first 30 minutes of the battle - 4x accelerated video taken from overhead:
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Turns 31-33. While I am waiting for artillery on the left flank (north), action continues on the right and center. At the center, my infantry is fighting for the hill - I am taking fire from the hilltop and although I did not want to go there, I will have to clear it. Automatic fire is coming in from the woods - StG 44, MP40. I lose three men from the fresh 3rd Platoon, 3rd Company, plus another to a new minefield. One of the Germans is also taken down. I am bringing in 50mm mortar fire on the hilltop. While this is happening, a fresh infantry team finishes off the HMG position that had been protecting the AT bunker and then throws four hand grenades at the structure, but no effect is observed. I may have to bring yet another team to finish the job.
More casualties from 1st turn artillery are appearing. 5 men from a MG team hit by a rocket - but the unit info is telling me that the MG is still deployed somewhere. A SdKfz 7/1 wrecked on the road, not far from Titan's command bunker - I am surprised that Titan brought such a vulnerable vehicle to this mostly short to medium-range battle.
On the right flank, the Stummel halftrack picks a fight with my T-34. It sees first (as should be expected) and begins firing HE after HE, and although many are intercepted by trees, I take a few hits. To my surprise, Titan does not pull out the halftrack when he has the opportunity. The T-34 fails to acquire the target, but an AT rifle scores a hit with a 14.5mm slug, wounding a crew member. The other three bail out. The vehicle does not register as destroyed.
A (second) tank contact appears near the Stummel - I think Titan is preparing a trap for my T-34. My tank has taken about 5 hits causing light damage to optics and radio and moderate damage to tracks. I am pulling it out - I don't want to accept a duel under the current conditions.
More casualties from 1st turn artillery are appearing. 5 men from a MG team hit by a rocket - but the unit info is telling me that the MG is still deployed somewhere. A SdKfz 7/1 wrecked on the road, not far from Titan's command bunker - I am surprised that Titan brought such a vulnerable vehicle to this mostly short to medium-range battle.
On the right flank, the Stummel halftrack picks a fight with my T-34. It sees first (as should be expected) and begins firing HE after HE, and although many are intercepted by trees, I take a few hits. To my surprise, Titan does not pull out the halftrack when he has the opportunity. The T-34 fails to acquire the target, but an AT rifle scores a hit with a 14.5mm slug, wounding a crew member. The other three bail out. The vehicle does not register as destroyed.
A (second) tank contact appears near the Stummel - I think Titan is preparing a trap for my T-34. My tank has taken about 5 hits causing light damage to optics and radio and moderate damage to tracks. I am pulling it out - I don't want to accept a duel under the current conditions.
K
KGBoy
Guest
Exciting!!
Lots of great observations! Defense is the hardest thing...
Line in the Sand. With BHQ and bunkers so upfront I wonder what is left for the back end?
I was thinking along the lines of a rush down the LF and go for the back prize first.
Glory and all that!
Lots of great observations! Defense is the hardest thing...
Line in the Sand. With BHQ and bunkers so upfront I wonder what is left for the back end?
I was thinking along the lines of a rush down the LF and go for the back prize first.
Glory and all that!