NATO's Kosovo War, 11 Years Later

[Cargol]

Did it happened for u to see orthodox churches being burned down in Bosnia?
Or Serbs without the 3 fingers of the right hand,the one with which they are making the sign of the cross, cut by mujahedeens?
Or beheaded bodies of Serbs both civilians or prisoners of war?
And just for u to know there is no nation called Macedonia at least recognised by United Nation,NATO or any other similar organisation.
As u ve served in a multinational environment u should have known that.
So because Cyprus is an island and people had nowhere to go to they should be exterminated and nobody cares?
How about the guarantee of its independance signed also by UK when Cyprus became independant?

I m attaching an interesting video of Sky news for u to see.
The ones that u were protecting during 90's now they are the one that u are calling terrorists.

 

[Cargol]

 

[Bidermann]

I think you should calm down, we all have our own points of view so just posting more and more just gets you more upset and angry .

 

[Cargol]

If u are reffering to me Bidermann i can tell u that im not angry at all.
And please tell me from where did u reach to the conclusion that im angry?

 

[Zhukov's Ghost]

Although it is officially the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM), outside of the Balkans it is commonly referred to as Macedonia. My mistake, I apologize if I caused offense.

I did not see any of the specific atrocities that you mentioned, I saw what I detailed in my above post. And I saw enough terrible acts committed by both sides, if I had seen what you mentioned, it would not change any of my above points.

People should care about Cyprus, but until national interests are at stake, it will be hard to convince other countries to take military action.

I only used the term "terrorist" in quoting other posters to this thread, otherwise I try to avoid use of the term as it has too many interpretations. I am aware that Sunni Takfiri extremists came to the Balkans to fight and some remained there. I am not aware of any threat to the West now originating there that would outweigh the benefits most have gained through a decade of relative stability.

I could not watch your videos, did their content contradict or support my point that mutual violence and the corresponding refugee crisis justified NATO action?

Do you disagree that Serbia failed to learn a strategic lesson from Bosnia? Do you think the Serbian military's operational methods were appropriate? If yes to either, I would be interested to hear your rationale.

 

[Cargol]

Attrocities have been commited by all sides during Yugoslavian Civil War.
Croats,Muslims and Serbs have their own share in war crimes for this period.
But only the Serb crimes were pinpointed and spoken over and over again in order to jusitfy an attack against them.
As u said u ve seen attrocities by all sides but only the ones made by Serbs are recorded in ur post, this is exactly what i mean.
If NATO attacks were made to protect the fleeing refugees why NATO didnt attack Croatian forces that in the same period (1995) were overrunning the Serbian Krajina with operation Flash and Operation Storm that lead over 300000 Serbs to flee their homes?
Those were second grade refugees?
This is another example of selective sensitivity and selective Justice exactly at the same period and at the same area.
The videos which i ve attached are clearly depicting how the International community was mislead and fooled by the so called muslim and Albanian drama as the once poor and peaceful citizens became Jihadis that are conducting a total war against the whole non Islamic world.
Indeed Serbs didnt learn the strategic lesson dictated to them during the Civil war and tried to stood their ground defending a part of their country(Kosovo).
As u ve been there i m sure u know of what great importance is Kosovo-Metohija for the Serbs and that they wouldnt hand it over that easily and their reaction to the terrorist attacks of the UCK gangs would be harsh and would give a great opportunity to International community to speak once again about the Bad Serbs and legitimate another attack.
So 12 years after Kosovo is progressing or it has become a safe heaven for drug and weapon smuglling,human traficicking and any other noble activity that the peacefull Kosovars are doing with great zeal under the nose of the tropps stationed there?
Those activities were the case during the Serbian rulling?
What have changed and now this is happening there?
Maybe the administration which is now entirely at the hands of Kosovars are encouraging those kind of acts?
And what this say about the quality of the Kosovo leadership?
Is not true that the guys which are playing the politicians in Kosovo are former UCK Cders some of them accused of war crimes?

 

[zaraza]

The NATO bombing campaign was justified, as it was the only means to force Serbia to the negotiating table in the face of a looming refugee crisis.

yeah, right.
Albanians want to take part of Serbian land by force, and we have to talk to them?
Maybe in some other Universe.

one Serbia failed to learn from its Bosnian experience

Serbia failed to do only one thing.
To actually push Albanians from Kosovo. Milosevic wanted to make himself goodguy, and instead sending them where they came from, he kept them in Serbia (Kosov)o.

lem that was thrust on the rest of Europe.

Through the aforementioned “terrorist attacks,†the Kosovar Albanians / UCK assuredly played a role in bringing down the wrath of the Serbs. But operationally, the Serbs erred in their response, using a hammer when they should have used a scalpel.

I dont think you know what are you talking about.
You don't realize how big their operations were.
Hammer was the solution, and hammer was not used.

A primary technique was to surround a Muslim village in a horseshoe, blast it with artillery, and wait for the villagers to flee out the open end of the horseshoe.

No, no muslim village.
Albanian terrorist village.

I served with the NATO peacekeepers in Bosnia in ’96-’97, the UN peacekeepers in Macedonia in ’98, and led a company into Kosovo with the NATO peacekeepers in June ’99. While in Kosovo, I watched the flood of over three quarters of a million Muslim refugees return home to try to scratch out a living in the dirt of Kosovo,

How many Serbs did you see fleeing from Kosovo?
Btw, as a member of foreign force, occupying my country, i consider you as my enemy.

I exhumed the bodies from a mass grave of 60 and 80 year old Muslim men shot dead by Serbian para-militaries,

How do you know they were shot by Serbian para-militaries?

and I watched home videos of young Muslim boys with their skulls smashed open.

Unfortunately you didnt see same on the other side.

The NATO forces made a good faith effort to protect everyone, but we could not be everywhere at once.

):"))
Now, this is very good joke
Do you have ANY idea how people live on Kosovo today and last few years? I mean Serbian people, not muslim terrorist scum...

The NATO solution was not perfect, but, contrary to the opening article, it did maintain peace and security in Europe, and was better than any alternative offered in this forum or elsewhere.

Very nice action, region is still unstable.

 

[zaraza]

Do you think the Serbian military's operational methods were appropriate? If yes to either, I would be interested to hear your rationale.

Because Serbian army did their job well, our methods were very appropriate in cleaning our territory from terrorist.
When you see one, you kill him. What;s the problem with that?

 

[Zhukov's Ghost]

Cargol,

I listed several things I witnessed the Kosvovar Albanians doing that I considered atrocities. To restate my point, it was the threat of another massive influx of refugees into Western Europe, like what occurred during the Bosnia conflict, not the atrocities, that finally caused NATO to take military action.

I understand your point about the Krajina Serbs, but they mainly fled to Bosnia and Serbia, and did not burden Western Europe. Perhaps if they had fled West, it would have drawn more attention. We could also draw a comparison to Africa, where the West rarely involves itself in cases of ethnic cleansing – despite humanitarian concerns, there is not often enough economic incentive to prompt military action.

I am interested to see the videos, can you send a link?

I agree with you, when they were in charge of Kosovo, the Serbs did not let the Kosovar Albanians run much of the crime activity. I am also familiar with the reputation of the Serbian mafia, it was probably tough to get a piece of the action. But I am not trying to justify current conditions in Kosovo, other than to state the world is better off now than it would have been had events stayed on their course prior to NATO action. Imagine the disruptive effect all those Kosvar criminals you list would have had in Western Europe.

You did not respond to my question about Serbian Army operational methods exacerbating the problem. I joined this forum to discuss wargaming and military history - Do you think further Serbian military activity would have halted the exodus of refugees or caused it to continue? Was there any indication that the Serbian army was planning a change of operational methods that might have resulted in them more effectively dealing with the UCK threat?

 

[Cargol]

So if i understood good u agree that the motives that led to NATO bombings and attacks against Serbia werent humanitarian ones, in fact it was only an excuse.
As far as i know the UCK at first was dealt primary by the police forces and some limited army forces responding to the terrorist attacks by making sweeps or guarding key infiltration terrain.
Its very difficult to deal with armed groups of terrorists as long as they have their bases that provide training and logistical support in other countries(Albania in this case) and can withdraw easily in safe heavens.
Serbian army if wanted to achieve a major blow to them would have to risk a war with Albania as they would have to hit inside Albania to break UCK's backbone.
I think that UCK in a way dictated the course of the war as they could easily choose where to hit wait for the Serbian response and continue in the same pattern.
U also have to know that NATO bombings did little damage to Serbian military machine,mainly the attacks targeted infastructure and civilian targets that little had to do with the ongoing conflict in Kosovo.
So to answer ur question i dont think that if the Serbian Army was escalating its actions or even if they tottally withdrew the result would have been different.
The fate of Kosovo was decided much before 1999.
The only time where the conflict took the shape of a conventional war was at the Kosara battle where the UCK aided by Albanian armed forces and ,as some sources claim, by NATO forces tried to invade Serbia(Kosovo) and finally they were repelled.
Balkan region has a long history of conflicts and some things that happened during past are not either forgotten nor forgiven so by helping terrorists or seperatists to try to change the borders of the Balkan countries by annexing or making a part independand even if there an ethnic minority lives there is like u are oppening the Pandora's box.
Try to search for Great Albania on the net, then u ll find maps that have parts of Serbia,Greece and FYROM as Albanian.
Think how dangerous is that for the stability in the region when only in Greece more than 1 milion economical emmigrants from Albania are living.
Dont get Zaraza wrong because of his angry words, just think if someone from this part of the world (Balkans) was saying to a British guy that IRA wasnt a terrorist organisation but a liberation army or to an American that those scums that attacked at 9/11 were punishing the US because they are selling weapons to Israel and their actions were justified.
PS I ll pm the links for the videos.

 

[Zhukov's Ghost]

Condemning entire villages of men, women, and children as terrorists is not a basis for a rational discussion of the issues (or rational military planning for that matter).

Neither is referring to a former member of NATO peacekeeping forces as your enemy. I assure you I never considered or referred to the Serbs as my enemy, neither did my troops.

My comments about Serbian Army operational methods were based on first hand, eyewitness accounts from Western observers.

Cargol, I appreciate your attempt for a more reasonable discussion, but I am not sure you understood my point.

I will not continue this discussion.

 

[Bootie]

And with that I will close this thread down. Some meaningful discussion has been had and much learned especially from those of us who did not know the situation before hand.

Despite some stern words from certain people I think we can all reflect that we are a diverse bunch and each have our own opinions and ideals.

I apologise to Zhukovs Ghost that he got referred to as an enemy... I guess on behalf of Zaraza that to have lived through it certainly paints it a different color than us looking in from the outside... Im sure it was said in the heat of the moment otherwise Zaraza would class all of us who reside in countries within NATO as his 'enemy' and I do not believe that is the case.

At the end of the day it comes down to politics and politicians... nasty smelly bunch they are but lets not let it get in the way of our wargaming and friendly discussion here.

Thankyou

Bootie