Sound Contacts and Spotting

R

Richtig

Guest
I appreciate I can be a bit critical of the spotting system in CM2, but in a recent game I think i discovered a new twist and wanted to see if anyone else had encountered it.

What occurred was a fight between two allied vehicles with line of sight to a german vehicle. The allies had the upper hand and were pounding the axis unit until it was k'od. All good no issues. However I then realised that another axis unit was firing into the bocage alongside one of the allied units - but apart from being able to see the rounds hitting the foliage, there was no enemy unit contact - not even a sound - total blank map.

Now my guess is that the fire was set by the opposing player - he knew where the target was and was trying to engage or get some deflected damage, but it essentially breaks the game (again) because according to the game their is nothing there. Or to put it another way because sound like spotting isn't handled correctly it is merely abstracted the game can't handle the players actions when they fall outside the game mechanics.

Appreciate I am maybe not the best at explaining what I mean - I just hope you get the jist.

Has anyone else noticed this, or had similar situations?
 
eniced73 said:
A screenie would help. Are you stating that since you did not have a sound contact that your opponent should not have also. Therefore not able to fire at you?
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I think the suggestion is that the German vehicle getting pounded by the two allied units, would have had contacts for both of them. It was one of these contact locations at which the other axis unit was putting down area fire, even though it may not have a contact of its own?
 
Gnarly said:
I think the suggestion is that the German vehicle getting pounded by the two allied units, would have had contacts for both of them. It was one of these contact locations at which the other axis unit was putting down area fire, even though it may not have a contact of its own?
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There is no way of knowing for certain if your own units are appearing from your opponent's point of view. However a good simple rule of thumb is when you are firing with a tank, AT gun, mortar etc you are essentially putting up flares saying 'I'm here.' Unless the weather conditions are really bad or the ranges are extreme, expect the enemy to get a good sense of where you are within two or three shots.

The other way a player can work out roughly where the fire is coming from is to look at the hit decals on their vehicles and then draw a rough line back to predict where the shot came from. (It's what Batman would do. ;) ). Ground level terrain analysis from the hit decal will usually give an experienced player the answer.

Using area fire on a likely sound contact I don't think is gamey at all. It's sort of recon by fire. As a player undertaking this type of targeting it's a risk, since you may not hit anything in the targeted spot and are sending up your own 'flares' by doing so.

Combat Mission - a game that is one big risk assessment one after another. :D
 
Well close enough guys, but really the nub is that despite their being area fire or recon fire as Ithikial says, none of the units had any contact for the firing unit. If the game worked properly, as Ithikial states, you should instantly get at least a sound contact for a unit firing - but in this case, despite the fire being visible to someone, no one had any spotting info for the firer.
 
Richtig said:
Well close enough guys, but really the nub is that despite their being area fire or recon fire as Ithikial says, none of the units had any contact for the firing unit. If the game worked properly, as Ithikial states, you should instantly get at least a sound contact for a unit firing - but in this case, despite the fire being visible to someone, no one had any spotting info for the firer.
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Ah sorry, so the second enemy unit behind some hedges is the one doing the firing and you can't formerly spot? You see the muzzle flash but don't get a sound contact icon. That would be weird.
 
@Richtig: As eniced73 already said - a screenshot (or two) would be very helpful, buddy. ;) (You may download the free demo version of FRAPS here http://www.chip.de/downloads/FRAPS-Letzte-Freeware-Version_13007435.html for to make screenshots from CM. Then you may upload the screenies to your photobucket account and present them here (and in the BF Forum if needed) by posting the link. :cool:

But as far as I understood the situation: The two Allied vehicles shot at an Axis vehicle and destroyed it. And while they were doing so, another Axis vehicle shot from somewhere and the Allied vehicle crews did not recognise it resp. had no clue where the shots came from as there was neither a visual nor an audial contact shown by the game mechanics
(no symbol).

My idea is that the firing was so loud (plus motor and explosion sounds) that the crews could not hear the second Axis vehicle shooting from a more far away hidden position. So right at this moment (turn) they have no idea that a second vehicle is shooting at them - they think that the firing and noise is all from the shooting with the first Axis vehicle.
Only you as the player see your vehicles from outside and you know what is happening but your crews don't know it yet.

Is this a possible/acceptable explanation? ;)

And how is the status of your crews and their training/ecxperience level? Are they "supressed" at the moment?
Any minus signs in morale or command?

Or maybe they are even feeling like Cpt. Miller in this scene for a moment? -->

 
Ah OK - thx!

Well, then I assume it is the same problem as there is with the visble "wading waves" and "breaking fences". Only the player sees them but the own units don't (resp. can't) and so there are no contact icons.
It is this sort of "mistake/flaw category" I'd say. You should report it to the BFF.
 
Well I don't think so actually. I could still be reading this wrong - no screens no save means I'm interpreting the words and hoping for the best. But in case I am not...

There is no instant anything in spotting. There are no guarantees. That is a feature and a good one IMHO.

So, if I have this straight now: you are saying that your tanks should have had an instant ? or full contact because they were fired upon. Nope, that is not how it works. Nothing the enemy does gives your men instant anything. Your guys have to earn it :) What that means is the tank crews have to have heard the shot. They were inside the tank firing at targets and probably buttoned (assumptions are piling up here I know - again no screen no save...) so while they might have heard the rounds hitting the ground / tree / bush next to them they did not hear the round being fired. Heck they might not have heard the round impacting. Now that they are no longer doing any shooting they might hear the next shot.

Tanks crews actually do not hear things outside their vehicle very well. This is one of the reasons having infantry around to hear these kinds of enemy action helps a lot. The near by infantry hear the shooter and tell the TC (given time).

Remember nothing the enemy does guarantees you anything.
 
Spotting would be great if it worked correctly. But it doesn't - the 'game' will tell you a unit can see another unit (through the bright icon) and actually it can't. Given that the point of the game is to use your weapons to control the ground your units can see, its a pretty fundamental flaw that lone of sight and spotting are subject to random tolerances - but thats a whole different ballgame.

If a tree falls in the woods and there is no one to hear it, does it make a sound? Not in Combat Mission my friend.
 
I've hit numerous cases where I can spot something and target it but when I hit the big red button and let the turn play out realise the vehicle can't get firing solution. That could be what's happening. Knocked out main weapon is usually the main culprit and you armour won't let lose with their MG's on an opposing armoured target.

However one of the more nuanced situations I've encountered is when one of your vehicle crew members lower in the hull, like a driver, can see the target but your gunner hasn't got LOS because of a tree canopy or some other terrain object is in the way. Real annoying with Shermans and other 'tall' tanks.

LOS and LOF is different for each vehicle.
 
@Ithikial Not firing, but just trying to see the 'visible' target.

You would expect light targeting in some cases should then get a spot when main targeting won't, I have never seen that - have you?
 
Richtig said:
@Ithikial Not firing, but just trying to see the 'visible' target.

You would expect light targeting in some cases should then get a spot when main targeting won't, I have never seen that - have you?
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I've certainly seen tank MG gunners shoot at something that the main gun cannot (say, over a high wall or around a corner), so I'd say yes. The "spot" in this case would be a full spot, possibly, since one of the crew can see the armour.

On the whole, I think the spotting system does a pretty good job. Having learnt a lot more about the way information is shared via C2, my main point of complaint with it is that you (as a player) have far too much information - a bailed out, isolated tank crew with no radio can "transmit" data through the magic of your omniscient presence far more effectively than they should be able to.

There isn't really a good fix for this - it's important to allow blind fire at a location (since that reflect reality), and CM doesn't limit you to only the role of Company or Battalion commander (for better or worse, you're playing the role of every squad leader, platoon leader, tank commander, etc.), so this kind of enforced fog of war isn't going to go happen. It's just a shame that all of the structure is in place for it, but it's too easy to ignore.
 
Domfluff said:
I've certainly seen tank MG gunners shoot at something that the main gun cannot (say, over a high wall or around a corner), so I'd say yes. The "spot" in this case would be a full spot, possibly, since one of the crew can see the armour.

On the whole, I think the spotting system does a pretty good job. Having learnt a lot more about the way information is shared via C2, my main point of complaint with it is that you (as a player) have far too much information - a bailed out, isolated tank crew with no radio can "transmit" data through the magic of your omniscient presence far more effectively than they should be able to.

There isn't really a good fix for this - it's important to allow blind fire at a location (since that reflect reality), and CM doesn't limit you to only the role of Company or Battalion commander (for better or worse, you're playing the role of every squad leader, platoon leader, tank commander, etc.), so this kind of enforced fog of war isn't going to go happen. It's just a shame that all of the structure is in place for it, but it's too easy to ignore.
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Hi ya

Full time coder and game dev ......i just spotted this ....

<< bailed out, isolated tank crew with no radio can "transmit" data through the magic of your omniscient presence far more effectively than they should be able to.>>

Dead simple to fix ............FOG the area if its that badly our of contact put some legend that says to player "tuff you may have known what's here but u dont any more" not untill somebody with a radio gets their ragged arse here
 
Which also means that the isolated, out of contact team (which doesn't have to be a tank crew, that's an extreme example) wouldn't be able to see it either, and wouldn't be able to react. You could have a system like the Iron difficulty, but that just makes it more awkward for the player to get the information, not actually harder.

I think the real answer would be to have units which were out of C2 relying entirely on the AI (or "an" AI, perhaps), but that level of command is not what CM is about (since you're playing *every* leader), and it would be a very different game. Interesting though.
 
You touch on something I believe in totally, and that is player responsibility.
Too many players play in a gamey fashion - the need to win, and it cheapens the whole game. Personally I would remove vehicle crews on this ground alone.

I know we all paid our dime, so we can play how we want, but I would love to know if there is a niche within a niche for more serious gamers wiling to recreate Ww2 combat, not Starcraft with WW2 equipment.
 
@A Canadian Cat you are right about the change of voice, I just don't want to keep picking at t he scab that is the old CM engine debate. Their are two camps, those that see the faults, and those that don't. I prefer to just leave it at that.

I love playing CM but I think the game engine is so outdated and clunky we could have a much better game if we were all on side. Just a personal opinion
 
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