StuGs

[Gorst]

True that the German player cannot choose Fireflies, but it's no good trying to surprise an opponent by a value strategy when his strategy remains better value. You won't catch any Allied opponent on the wrong foot by choosing Panzer IV's.

Given the 26% premium on Fireflies over the cheapest Shermans I don't think that is quite accurate. The same dynamic is present with a US opponent, where the Sherman 76s are even more expensive than Fireflies. Cheap TDs like the M10 and Hellcat are an option but they come at the opportunity cost of very limited anti-infantry capability.

A Sherman 75 can knock out a Panther frontally at 450-650m through the turret (firing regular AP). And since the game highly favours turret shots, and most combat in CM takes place at less than 650m, the Sherman is far from defenceless.

That is extremely rare. Even at 300m you are more likely to get a ricochet penetration through the hull roof than a direct penetration through the turret (at least on Panther A, maybe not on G).

But yeah, against a US player, at least there is a kind of balance where the Panther is tough and expensive, and the Shermans weaker and cheaper. It's mostly when you add the cheap UK Fireflies to the mix that the balance goes out the window because the German player has no real counter. If defending the German player can sort of counter them by stocking up on Marders and PaK 40's, but in an attack or meeting engagement I don't know.

I maintain that Panzer IVs are a good choice for the German player in almost all circumstances. I know some people (not me) think they are too expensive but they are cheaper than the 76mm and 17 pdr Shermans players are most likely to buy because Panthers.

 

[Bulletpoint]

That is extremely rare. Even at 300m you are more likely to get a ricochet penetration through the hull roof than a direct penetration through the turret (at least on Panther A, maybe not on G).

Depends on the ammo the Sherman is firing. Regular AP slugs should go through the turret, while APCBC should not. This is based on the pencalc website, which I generally find matches very well with how things happen in CM.

About value strategies:

Given the 26% premium on Fireflies over the cheapest Shermans I don't think that is quite accurate.

I think the correct comparison is not with the cheapest Sherman, but with the Panzer IV. The idea is to trick your opponent into buying expensive assets but denying them proper targets. In this case, if you don't choose Panthers, your opponent's 4-5 Fireflies are now somewhat less useful, and they cost your opponent a tiny bit more points than he would otherwise have spent. But the supposedly expensive specialty Fireflies are still the same price as your Panzer IV. That's where the value play goes out the window.

the Sherman 76s are even more expensive than Fireflies.

Is there any good reason for why this is? It seems bonkers to me.

 

[Gorst]

Depends on the ammo the Sherman is firing. Regular AP slugs should go through the turret, while APCBC should not. This is based on the pencalc website, which I generally find matches very well with how things happen in CM.

Yeah, uncapped AP would work. But you'll only find that in CMFI. I think. To be honest I've never tested it in that game.

I think the correct comparison is not with the cheapest Sherman, but with the Panzer IV. The idea is to trick your opponent into buying expensive assets but denying them proper targets. In this case, if you don't choose Panthers, your opponent's 4-5 Fireflies are now somewhat less useful, and they cost your opponent a tiny bit more points than he would otherwise have spent. But the supposedly expensive specialty Fireflies are still the same price as your Panzer IV. That's where the value play goes out the window.

We seem to have different philosophies on purchase strategy. To me it's all about efficiency. If my more efficient Pz IVs cost the same as his less efficient Fireflies I'm still ahead.

Is there any good reason for why this is? It seems bonkers to me.

Better armor.

Firefly
Upper hull: 51mm @ 56°
Lower hull: 51mm
Armor quality: 90%

M4A1 Sherman 76W
Upper hull: 64mm @ 47°
Lower hull: 102mm
Armor quality: 100%

 

[Bulletpoint]

We seem to have different philosophies on purchase strategy. To me it's all about efficiency. If my more efficient Pz IVs cost the same as his less efficient Fireflies I'm still ahead.

Yes we do seem to have different approaches here. But how do you see Panzer IV as more efficient than the Firefly?

 

[Gorst]

Yes we do seem to have different approaches here. But how do you see Panzer IV as more efficient than the Firefly?

They cost about the same (the Pz IV J is actually a little cheaper) but the Pz IV is the better tank in almost every way that matters. It has one more crewman, one more machine gun, about 20 more HE rounds and a lower profile. IIRC it also has lower ground pressure. The only advantage the Firefly has is the penetration of its anti-armor rounds but that is of little consequence since both tanks can kill each other at any practical range.

 

[Bulletpoint]

They cost about the same (the Pz IV J is actually a little cheaper) but the Pz IV is the better tank in almost every way that matters. It has one more crewman, one more machine gun, about 20 more HE rounds and a lower profile. IIRC it also has lower ground pressure.

Fair points. The Sherman has better armour though.

The only advantage the Firefly has is the penetration of its anti-armor rounds but that is of little consequence since both tanks can kill each other at any practical range.

I've seen Pak40 rounds bounce off Firefly turrets at long range though. And the Pak 40 is a bit better than the Panzer IV gun. Also, a faster gun will land the first hit faster even at medium ranges.

It also seems to me that the advantages you list only really apply to a situation where the Allied player buys only Fireflies and ditches all the regular Shermans. Then you'd maybe have a slight advantage because of the reasons you mentioned, if you went for only Panzer IV's.

However, since the Fireflies are restricted by rarity, he will only be able to take 3-5 of them probably, depending on battle size and month, so what you will face is a horde of mostly regular Shermans that will still outprice your value play.

 

[Lethaface]

I've seen Pak40 rounds bounce off Firefly turrets at long range though. And the Pak 40 is a bit better than the Panzer IV gun. Also, a faster gun will land the first hit faster even at medium ranges.

In my experience the Pak 40 doesn't have any problem of punching through Shermans at a ~1KM. Finding the range and getting a hit is more difficult at that range.

It also seems to me that the advantages you list only really apply to a situation where the Allied player buys only Fireflies and ditches all the regular Shermans. Then you'd maybe have a slight advantage because of the reasons you mentioned, if you went for only Panzer IV's.

However, since the Fireflies are restricted by rarity, he will only be able to take 3-5 of them probably, depending on battle size and month, so what you will face is a horde of mostly regular Shermans that will still outprice your value play.

But than if you take rarity into account like you do here; you wont see a horde of cheap Shermans because the M4, M4A1 and M4A3 have quite some rarity strapped to m. The M4A3(W)75 has no rarity, but costs almost same as a PZ-IV J.

 

[Drifter Man]

In my experience the Pak 40 doesn't have any problem of punching through Shermans at a ~1KM. Finding the range and getting a hit is more difficult at that range.

Sherman's upper hull plate (the 51mm version - all British Shermans in CMBN, plus M4-M4A3 without any W's) starts to deflect the KwK40/PaK40 AP round at 400-500 meters. It depends much on the exact angle, elevation difference, and luck. I recently got a kill of a Firefly at 1000 meters through the upper hull plate (partial pen).
The turret face and gun shield are vulnerable at all practical ranges.

 

[Bulletpoint]

In my experience the Pak 40 doesn't have any problem of punching through Shermans at a ~1KM. Finding the range and getting a hit is more difficult at that range.

@Drifter Man What was the range my Marder bounced shots against your Firefly turret again? 1000m?

But than if you take rarity into account like you do here; you wont see a horde of cheap Shermans because the M4, M4A1 and M4A3 have quite some rarity strapped to m. The M4A3(W)75 has no rarity, but costs almost same as a PZ-IV J.

Could differ between the various games and months... I only play CMBN and CMFB and haven't noticed any rarity cost to the cheapest Shermans. It's possible I could be wrong of course. It's been some time since I looked at it.

 

[Drifter Man]

@Drifter Man What was the range my Marder bounced shots against your Firefly turret again? 1000m?



Could differ between the various games and months... I only play CMBN and CMFB and haven't noticed any rarity cost to the cheapest Shermans. It's possible I could be wrong of course. It's been some time since I looked at it.

I don't recall that event, but if you give more details, I'll dig up the save and check. I remember three engagements between my Fireflies and your PaKs and Marders at around 800-1000 meters.
- One Firefly was killed by a PaK40 at ~850 meters while on the move
- One Firefly was killed by a Marder - I think - after it crested the hill on your right flank
- Another Firefly survived a hit from a Marder on the same hill later - do you mean that one?

 

[Bulletpoint]

- Another Firefly survived a hit from a Marder on the same hill later - do you mean that one?

Yep, this one. As I remember it, it was a shot right on the middle of the turret just above the barrel. It's possible the slope of the turret armour and that you had the vehicle in slight hulldown gave the entire thing a bit of an angle.

 

[Drifter Man]

Yep, this one. As I remember it, it was a shot right on the middle of the turret just above the barrel. It's possible the slope of the turret armour and that you had the vehicle in slight hulldown gave the entire thing a bit of an angle.

I sifted through my DAR, looking for your Sherman kills. No record of the turret face armor deflecting a 75mm at any range is there. The last one (Turn 78) should be the one you had in mind - it was an upper hull armor hit.

Turn 44: a Firefly that I sent forward to engage the suppressed AT gun with area fire got hit with an AP round in turret face and was knocked out. [~800 meters]

Turn 46: The third AT gun, which knocked out the Firefly, turned it attention to a Sherman further afield and set it on fire with two shots. [~900 meters, no record of whether it was hull or turret; Sherman V]

Turn 68: Marder 5 finds a target quickly - it chooses Sherman 2 - and opens fire at ~1250-1300 meters. And its accuracy is scary at this range. The first one is a miss, the second one is a glancing hit deflected by the side armor of Sherman 1
[...] The third [round] is on the upper hull plate of Sherman 2. Upper hull is strong enough to protect the tank at this distance, but the next one could be the turret face - and that's usually the end. [Both Sherman Vs]

Turn 71: First, I crawled with a Sherman Firefly on Hill 312 to target Marder 5 with area fire at 930 meters. I knew the Firefly would not be able to see the Marder, so area firing was supposed to give it an ability to shoot back. However, Marder 5 spotted it immediately - by immediately I do mean immediately: it fired before the Firefly did. Two rounds, two hits, one deflected by upper hull armor, second on weapon mount - K.O.

Turn 71: Marder 4 has been receiving intense mortar fire but stood its ground while I dispatched two Shermans to attack it. Again, no contact by the Shermans. Marder fired back at one as soon as it entered the view. Two misses, the third shot is a partial penetration of upper hull at 680 meters. No casualties but the tank is K.O. [Sherman V]

Turn 77: The shooting exercise of the invisible Marder 5 continues. This turn's victim is the Sherman in the covering position in the image above. A shot through the turret face kills 1 crew and disables the main gun (fortunately only 11 HE left). But CM gods are gracious to me this time and allow the tank to retreat behind a quickly laid smoke screen. I may still be able to use its hull MG. [~1250-1300 meters, Sherman V]

Turn 78: The invincible Marder 5 again turns its big bad gun around, this time picking up a Firefly that has been area firing it from Hill 312. The first shot is deflected by upper hull armor, the second one is high.

 

[Bulletpoint]

Drifter Man's meticulous record keeping: 1
Bulletpoint's memory: 0

 

[Lethaface]

Sherman's upper hull plate (the 51mm version - all British Shermans in CMBN, plus M4-M4A3 without any W's) starts to deflect the KwK40/PaK40 AP round at 400-500 meters. It depends much on the exact angle, elevation difference, and luck. I recently got a kill of a Firefly at 1000 meters through the upper hull plate (partial pen).
The turret face and gun shield are vulnerable at all practical ranges.

Not doubting that it can deflect from that range, for all intents and purposes the Sherman is very vulnerable to the PaK40 in most if not all combat ranges. My most recent experience with the Pak40 against Shermans was early this year in CMFB, 'first round battle for Chaumont' PBEM. I had two PaK40 which both KO'ed a bunch of Shermans at around 1km.

 

[Gorst]

51mm RHA @56° x 90% (armor quality) = 106mm equivalent vs 75mm APCBC. The 75L48 penetrates 109mm at 1000m and 103 at 1250m, so it should penetrate a Firefly upper hull 50% of the time at 1125m, on paper. I just did a quick sanity test at 1000m in CMBN and the Pz IV penetrates the upper hull most of the time (on paper it should penetrate on 69% of hits although in my small sample size test it was probably closer to 90%)

 

[Gorst]

Could differ between the various games and months... I only play CMBN and CMFB and haven't noticed any rarity cost to the cheapest Shermans. It's possible I could be wrong of course. It's been some time since I looked at it.

In CMFB by January '45 all of the sub-200 pt Shermans have a rarity rating of RARE.

It also seems to me that the advantages you list only really apply to a situation where the Allied player buys only Fireflies and ditches all the regular Shermans. Then you'd maybe have a slight advantage because of the reasons you mentioned, if you went for only Panzer IV's.

However, since the Fireflies are restricted by rarity, he will only be able to take 3-5 of them probably, depending on battle size and month, so what you will face is a horde of mostly regular Shermans that will still outprice your value play.

Yes, cheap Shermans are the allied counter to the German Pz IV value play, but the thing to remember is the allied player is gambling. His cheap Shermans will have a long day if they end up facing Panthers. Or Hetzers, or JPz IVs or even StuGs at long ranges.

Admittedly, the large majority of my CM2 PBEM games have been scenarios so I don't know what is popular. But in CM1 I played QBs almost exclusively and the Pz IV was my German go-to tank in large part because it was unpopular.

 

[Lethaface]

In CMFB by January '45 all of the sub-200 pt Shermans have a rarity rating of RARE.


Yes, cheap Shermans are the allied counter to the German Pz IV value play, but the thing to remember is the allied player is gambling. His cheap Shermans will have a long day if they end up facing Panthers. Or Hetzers, or JPz IVs or even StuGs at long ranges.

Admittedly, the large majority of my CM2 PBEM games have been scenarios so I don't know what is popular. But in CM1 I played QBs almost exclusively and the Pz IV was my German go-to tank in large part because it was unpopular.

Given why they usually face Panthers at 360 points. Not Stugs at 300+, Jpz at 330+ or Hetzers at 280. However imo at 240-50 the Pz IV is still a very decent buy / tank.

 

[Gorst]

However imo at 240-50 the Pz IV is still a very decent buy / tank.

Yes, it's a "good enough" tank. It's capable enough and versatile enough to do whatever job you need a tank to do if handled properly, and at an affordable price. But if you are looking for a tank to win the battle for you with superior specs keep looking.

 

[Lethaface]

Yes, it's a "good enough" tank. It's capable enough and versatile enough to do whatever job you need a tank to do if handled properly, and at an affordable price. But if you are looking for a tank to win the battle for you with superior specs keep looking.

Agreed. Even the Panther isn't the superior tank that wins you battles imo, I guess that's why we keep playing this games as it are the tactics that win or lose a battle. So all in al BFC did a good enough job from that POV. Although in those tactics I personally feel that the drawbacks for casemated vehicles aren't discounted in the purchases.
But the next QBs I'm planning will be with loose rarity points, I guess that can shake up things a bit.

 

[Redwolf]

Yes, it's a "good enough" tank. It's capable enough and versatile enough to do whatever job you need a tank to do if handled properly, and at an affordable price. But if you are looking for a tank to win the battle for you with superior specs keep looking.

I dunno. The 50mm turret front is killing me (literally).

There should be a substantial discount for that.