Fact..Pin back your lug Holes

At his trial, Pontius Pilate found Jesus not guilty (Luke 23:4), but then the snooty priests said "Whoa bub, you can't let him walk! He claimed to be a king which is high treason because Caesar in Rome is the only true king! If you don't order his execution it'll look bad on your record and you'll spend the rest of your life cleaning out the latrines in the Colosseum!"
so Pilate said "Er...yeah, maybe you're right, I'd better sign his death warrant"..

Later when christianity began snowballing in popularity after Jesus's execution, the snooty priests and the posturing Romans said - "Oops better not let on it was us who killed him, quick shred all the documents implicating us or we'll have a Jesusgate scandal on our hands. Let's airbrush him out of history and start hassling christians, and people will soon quickly forget about him"..
Nevertheless 27 books did slip through the net and get published as the New Testament..
 
PoorOldSpike said:
At his trial, Pontius Pilate found Jesus not guilty (Luke 23:4), but then the snooty priests said "Whoa bub, you can't let him walk! He claimed to be a king which is high treason because Caesar in Rome is the only true king! If you don't order his execution it'll look bad on your record and you'll spend the rest of your life cleaning out the latrines in the Colosseum!"
so Pilate said "Er...yeah, maybe you're right, I'd better sign his death warrant"..

Later when christianity began snowballing in popularity after Jesus's execution, the snooty priests and the posturing Romans said - "Oops better not let on it was us who killed him, quick shred all the documents implicating us or we'll have a Jesusgate scandal on our hands. Let's airbrush him out of history and start hassling christians, and people will soon quickly forget about him"..
Nevertheless 27 books did slip through the net and get published as the New Testament..
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If I remember correctly, Pilate didn't order the executuion, he "washed his hands" of the whole affair. It was the mob who called for his death. So even if it was true that some priests and a loud mob called for his death, I don't think it fair to demonize an entire group of people as being guilty of killing him. Ideas like that have led to some truly dark times in human history.
 
ACSpectre said:
If I remember correctly, Pilate didn't order the executuion, he "washed his hands" of the whole affair. It was the mob who called for his death. So even if it was true that some priests and a loud mob called for his death, I don't think it fair to demonize an entire group of people as being guilty of killing him. Ideas like that have led to some truly dark times in human history.
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1- The roman troops crucified Jesus, sure Pilate might have not liked the whole business, but he was Commanding Officer and must have given the order otherwise they wouldn't have done it.

2- Of course Jesus had a great fan following among the Jewish people but it was the snooty jewish priests of Organised Religion (Judaism) who talked Pilate into killing Jesus because they hated his guts ever since he publicly told them they were full of filth and corruption.(Matt 23:27)
Today the majority of Jews reject Jesus, that's why Israel is a Jewish state and not a Christian one..;)
 
ACSpectre said:
It is well documented that there were many different religions and belief systems throughout the world hundreds of years before the appearance of what we recognize as Christianity. The Chinese, for example were practicing their own religion long before Christianity appeared on the scene. Some of my questions about Christianity are these: Why would a loving god sentence an entire culture as non-believers based solely on the fact that due to their geographic location and language/cultural barriers, they had never been exposed to Christian doctrine? Why didn't God make himself known to the ancient Chinese as well as those in the holy land? If all men were created by the same god than we should have a Chinese bible, a Japanese bible, a Pacific island bible, etc. If the one true word was passed down from generation to generation than why would things like the crusades be necessary? Why would there have been whole cultures of people who had never heard it. We can trace Chinese history back thousands of years yet there is no history of them ever receiving the one true word and then rejecting it or turning away from it.

I consider myself a spiritual person. There have been times in my life when I have had absolutely no doubt that I have been in the presence of something far bigger and more powerful than myself. What or who that power is, that is far beyond my meager means to say and I surely would not claim that someone who doesn't believe as I do is wrong in their beliefs.
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If one believes that God created and all come from one father and mother which has been proven scientifically. Then they would of passed it on to their children and so forth. If they didn't then the sins of the father passes to the sins of the son. The chinese would of can from the middle east also there for their fathers did not do their jobs!
 
iron mike usmc said:
I believe in truths. I believe in facts. I believe truth is perception. When an individual believes something, it becomes a truth to them. The same as with a group. Once upon a time people believed the world was flat. To them it was a truth, but is was not fact. There was a time when men, supported by the Chrstian Church, believed the Earth was the physical center of the universe. I do believe it has been proven as a fact that the universe does not revolve around the earth. Another truth that was not factual. Which does not mean that the earth isn't the center of the spiritual universe.
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That was a small group that believed the earth was flat but we all got painted with the same brush...go figure

I do not and cannot believe in anything that does not consider the other side. If you'll pardon the expression, within the contexts of this discussion, I tend to play the devil's advocate whenever there is any sort of disagreement. I was taught to walk a mile in another's shoes before making judgement.
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Amen to that .

Judeo/Christians believe their God is the one true God. We tend to consider anyone who thinks otherwise as pagan, non-believers, heathens. There are other religions and beliefs have one or more gods in their pantheons. I have no doubt they would think the same of us. In their eyes we are wrong.
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The bible says there are many gods, but only one true God. It warns not to let one make money their god also...because you can only serve one master. This does not take away that there is only one true GOD>
 
ACSpectre said:
I don't think it fair to say that Jews reject Jesus. They recognize him as a prophet but they do not believe in his divinity. A belief shared by many other religions.
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Ask a Jew some time why they don't read Isaiah chapture 53. They pretend he is a prophet...same as the musliums...all their other prophets they follow thier teaching to the dot...but Jesus not so.
 
The Jews are still waiting for their messiah,as they never accepted Jesus to be the one,one wonders who this messiah will be?
As for muslim religion IMO, is a fake one made up by an intelligent woman(Mohamed's wife) that includes fragments of all the known religions at that time.
 
Cargol said:
The Jews are still waiting for their messiah,as they never accepted Jesus to be the one,one wonders who this messiah will be?
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Ha ha ha, in a TV docu series, Star Wars actor Ewan McGregor and his mates were motorcycling through Tunisia and stopped over at a small Star Wars museum there, walking round minus his helmet and leathers, looking just like the other shirts-and-shorts tourists milling around.
But nobody recognised him, despite there being posters of him on the walls among the memorabilia and stuff, and if they'd just glanced around they'd have seen him standing next to them..:)
As he left he said to the camera with a smile "I was expecting to get mobbed".
The moral?- Same with Jesus; there was the Son of God himself walking around Israel large as life, yet he remained unrecognised by the snooty Jewish priests and many ordinary people.
No wonder he had to tell them to get their noses out of the small print of their heavyweight theological volumes and simply glance up to see him standing right in front of them-
"You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." (John 5:39)
 
2054172 said:
Ask a Jew some time why they don't read Isaiah chapture 53. They pretend he is a prophet...same as the musliums...all their other prophets they follow thier teaching to the dot...but Jesus not so.
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Right, their own jewish Old T prophets foretell Jesus's arrival, but they won't even listen to them!

The Messiah would be born in Bethlehem - fulfilled
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times." (Micah 5:2)

The Messiah would enter Jerusalem on a donkey - fulfilled
"Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey" (Zech 9:9)

The Messiah would be silent before His accusers - fulfilled
"He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth" (Isaiah 53:7).

The Messiah would be flogged and spit on - fulfilled
"I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard, I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting" (Isaiah 50:6)

The Messiah would suffer nails and spearthrust - fulfilled
".. he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed" (Isaiah 53:5)

The Messiah would be crucified with thieves - fulfilled
"..he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors" (Isaiah 53:12)

The betrayal money would be thrown in the temple for a potters field - fulfilled
"Throw it to the potter- the handsome price at which they priced me. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter" (Zech 11:13)

And of course when Jesus came he himself confirmed he was the Messiah -
"The woman said, "I know that the Messiah is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us."
Then Jesus declared, "I'm him." (John 4:25/26)
 
Incidentally there's a theory going round that swine flu is pigs revenge for what Jesus did to them-

Matt ch 8 -
DEMONS IN MAN - "Leave us alone!"

JESUS - "On yer bikes, get into them pigs!"
(pigs go bananas and charge over cliff)

FARMER - "Hey! what you done to me pigs?"

JESUS (to Peter) - "Come on mate let's do a runner!"

FARMER - "That's it run off! I know where you live! I'll tell your mam about you"..

JESUS- "Shut yer trap and go chew a carrot!"

(Later at home) MARY - "What you bin doing today?"

JESUS - "Nowt"

MARY - "I heard you done summat to some pigs"

JESUS - "You heard wrong"

(Police arrive) SERGEANT - "Jesus of Nazareth alias the Messiah, the Christ and the Son of God, I have a warrant for your arrest on charges of animal cruelty, you have the right to remain silent"..

JESUS - "It weren't me, Peter done it!"

SERGEANT - "Wrong sunshine, we've got witnesses"

JESUS - "Who grassed me up? I bet it was Judas! Wait til my dad hears about this"..
 
PoorOldSpike said:
1- The roman troops crucified Jesus, sure Pilate might have not liked the whole business, but he was Commanding Officer and must have given the order otherwise they wouldn't have done it.

2- Of course Jesus had a great fan following among the Jewish people but it was the snooty jewish priests of Organised Religion (Judaism) who talked Pilate into killing Jesus because they hated his guts ever since he publicly told them they were full of filth and corruption.(Matt 23:27)
Today the majority of Jews reject Jesus, that's why Israel is a Jewish state and not a Christian one..;)
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Again, I think it is inaccurate to say they "reject" Jesus. They may reject his divinity but they recognize him as a prophet. Using the phrase"The Jews reject Jesus" is not only inaccurate but inflammatory. Phrases and thinking like this have been used historically as justification for the greatest atrocities mankind has ever seen. I have a hard time believing that a faith that perpetuates such thinking can be the one true way.
 
ACSpectre said:
Again, I think it is inaccurate to say they "reject" Jesus. They may reject his divinity but they recognize him as a prophet...
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The Jews say Jesus is a liar and blasphemer for calling himself the Son of God. Sure they might try to cover themselves by saying "but we still think he was a prophet" but it just won't wash.
I mean, you can't call somebody a prophet if you reject what he says..:)
 
PoorOldSpike said:
The Jews say Jesus is a liar and blasphemer for calling himself the Son of God. Sure they might try to cover themselves by saying "but we still think he was a prophet" but it just won't wash.
I mean, you can't call somebody a prophet if you reject what he says..:)
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I raise my glass to you, sir, and state that we must respectfully agree to disagree. I must say though, that I have enjoyed the lively yet civil back and forth. Perhaps we can re-direct our passion to the battlefield; Fancy a game?
 
hedgehog(FGM) said:
A theory I have with heaven and Hell, is that here on earth it is in
fact Hell, what i mean is that we are here to do good things, should we pass
the test
then we go to Heaven...now how does that rate as possible.
as any one else thought about it that way, got to admit it
does sound right
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Yes anythings possible mate, we can't even begin to see the Big Picture-
Jesus said:-"You hardly believe me when I tell you earthly things,so how would you believe me if I told you heavenly things?...You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world (John 3:12,8:23)
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord" (Isa 55:8 )

PS- I wasn't singling the Jews out earlier, as in fact they and ALL nonchristian religions (including atheists) are Jesus-rejecters, that's why they're called er.. 'nonchristian' religions..
In God's eyes there are only two types of religions:- Jesus-accepters (Christians), and Jesus-rejecters (Nonchristians)

I mean, if you turn up at the door of an Elvis convention and tell them "I'm a Barry Manilow fan but think Elvis is almost as good", the bouncer will reply "Clear off Charlie!"
Same if Nonchristians turn up at the pearlies -

PETER - "Why should I let you in?"

GATECRASHERS - "Because even though we're not christians we've always admired Jesus and been nice spiritually-minded people"

PETER - "Are you friends of Jesus?"

GATECRASHERS - "Er... um....well yes...sort of..."

PETER (calling inside) - "Hey Jesus, somebody here says they're friends of yours"

JESUS - "Nah, I don't know them from Adam, tell them to get on their bikes"

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Jesus said-"You're my friends if you follow me. I don't call you servants, but I call you friends" (John 15:15)

Right Elv?

"Uh-huh"..
elvis-at-mike.jpg
 
ACSpectre said:
...Fancy a game?...
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Yes mate I never refuse a challenge; so suggest some parameters, or shall i send you a Valentines v PzIII mirror?
Send all contact to my mail address- pooroldspike at aol dotcom
 
PoorOldSpike said:
...In God's eyes there are only two types of religions:- Jesus-accepters (Christians), and Jesus-rejecters (Nonchristians)...
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According to who? Regardless of source, this statement cannot withstand scrutiny. This statement assumes EVERY person in the world has been exposed to the words of Jesus, and said no thank you. No one can possibly believe that is the case. For the last two thousand years every person who has been born and died who never heard of Jesus, or Christianity is doomed? Is rejected? Not the compassionate God I was raised to believe in. Aren't all people God's children? It is one thing for a parent to reject a child who has rejected them. It is another thing altogether for a parent to reject their child for something the child has no control over. For all intents and purposes anyone who is born a Christian, and has been baptized, who is mentally incapable of understanding the concept of God, and therefore cannot "accept" him, is doomed? If there is exception for this kind of circumstance, then the exception must be valid for everyone who has never heard of the Christian God, or the words of His Son.
 
Iron Mike USMC quote-"According to who? Regardless of source, this statement cannot withstand scrutiny

POS reply- Helen Keller was struck deaf and blind by illness when she was a baby, but as she got older she learned to communicate by tapping fingers on palms of hands and received an education that way.
"What was it like to be told about Jesus for the first time" someone asked her.
"I always knew he was there" she replied.
The moral? In her silent prison she 'saw' him easily, and he can also be 'seen' by everybody on the planet whether deaf or blind or not, if only they'd slow down from the rat race and chill.

For example suppose somebody is raised by their parents in a nonchristian faith, that doesn't mean the child should slavishly follow the religion of his parents if he can 'sense' there's a better way through Jesus.
"Jesus saved you from the empty way of life handed you by your forefathers" (1 Pet 1:18 )

As for people who've never heard of Jesus, they too could 'sense' his presence if they really wanted to.
Jesus said- "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you" (Matt 7:7)

In fact God cuts some slack for those who've never heard of Jesus, but for the rest of us who have heard of him, we're in a world of hurt if we reject him-"In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent." (Acts 17:30)
 
How can someone seek something or someone they have no concept about? I think it more reasonable to believe that a person who seeks out goodness and justice, and lives a moral and righteous life, who has not heard of or "felt" Jesus, is no different than some who has lived the same way and has heard of and/or believes in Jesus. Does that 'felt' presence need to manifest itself with the word or person of Jesus, or with all that he stood for and taught us?

To compare Helen Keller, who had her full mental awareness, to someone mentally impaired doesn't hold water. Helen Keller was handicapped, but she wasn't unaware, once she learned ways to communicate with the world around her. There are far too many people in the world with impairments that will never let them achieve that awareness. For Helen Keller to have said what you quoted, I have to believe it was a 20/20 hindsight statement, equating hope with faith.
 
iron mike usmc said:
I think it more reasonable to believe that a person who seeks out goodness and justice, and lives a moral and righteous life, who has not heard of or "felt" Jesus, is no different than some who has lived the same way and has heard of and/or believes in Jesus..
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The short answer is- nobody knows but God whether somebody qualifies to get through the pearlies, whether or not they've heard of Jesus..:)
For example over the years I've known hundreds of so-called 'christians', but I'd estimate only about 5% of them are true christians who really know Jesus, i kid you not.

Even the apostle Paul, one of the greatest christians of all said-"Although I feel i'm a good christian, that doesn't make me one in God's eyes, only he knows if any of us shape up properly" (1 Cor 4:3)

As regards the mentally handicapped, who's to say they haven't found Jesus within themselves?

God sees things differently to us, for example who did Jesus say was the greatest man ever to be born?
Some famous King maybe? Or one of the ancient prophets? A wise philosopher or mystic holy man perhaps?
Nah!
Jesus's cousin John was a young unemployed world-rejecter living rough in the middle of nowhere eating wild food and dressed in near-rags, sometimes going in town to yell insults at the snooty priests and corrupt rulers.
Jesus's verdict on him? -
"John is the greatest man ever to be born" (Matt 11:11)
 
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