Light and Medium on Map Mortars

[Redwolf]

Back to the topic: Some of you are saying that mortars are too effective. Based on what? Do we have studies or accounts that support this assertion? I haven't see any yet. Others say the mortars are not effective enough. Same questions.

That was me. I think you misunderstood partially. I rated small HE as overly powerful based on how it compares to larger HE. If people agree that the problem instead is that large HE is undermodeled that is fine with me.

FWIW, TacOps has much more powerful large (152-155mm) HE rounds than CMCW, and TacOps has a much longer tradition as a military teaching tool. TacOps' author, however, says that he had to decide on the values on his own even after conferring with real military because the different branches all said their own branch is undermodeled and the other branches overmodeled. There doesn't seem to be as much modeling benefit to military participation as one would think. In TacOps indirect artillery also targets faster, but then it plays around 1992, not 1982.

In CMCW you can buy Soviet 120mm onboard mortars for 49 points with IIRC 12 HE rounds. They don't move very fast, though.

 

[Bulletpoint]

from the sublime to the rediculous, while toying around with using infantry guns as indirect fire (on very large maps), I found that if ordered to attack a point target they will hit it with pinpoint accuracy every time even over several kilometers!

This has long been known and reported, but of course not fixed. Can't find the threads right now, but it was originally reported by Rockinharry.

I don't believe this has any practical use in a real game, but I thought it was interesting.

I've used that bug to take out key AFVs with an on-map Hummel on a very large WW2 scenario (Mission to Maas). Also to hit specific floors of specific buildings.

 

[Gorst]

This has long been known and reported, but of course not fixed. Can't find the threads right now, but it was originally reported by Rockinharry.

I've used that bug to take out key AFVs with an on-map Hummel on a very large WW2 scenario (Mission to Maas). Also to hit specific floors of specific buildings.

It is fixed in Red Thunder. Presumably the other games will be in the next patches.

IG18 indirect fire (point target) at 1900 meters in Red Thunder v2.11:

 

[Gorst]

Compared to off-map fires on-map indirect fire is more difficult to lay perpendicular to the line of fire because the dispersion pattern is biased along the y-axis, i.e. if you plot a point target the dispersion pattern is oval while off-map fires form a circle.

As for mortars firing directly, any vehicle with HE + 10 second pause at movement point + Target Briefly = bye bye!

 

[Larsen]

I am not sure I understand - what vehicle with HE? Who makes a pause? Who targets briefly?

 

[Redwolf]

Ahhhh.

CMCW: When you buy the 120mm on-map mortar in a Quickbattle you get around 120 (!) rounds of ammunition. If you get it in the scenario editor it seems to be 15-50 (still way too much for 5 men).

Might be worth reporting on BFC.

 

[Drifter Man]

I am not sure I understand - what vehicle with HE? Who makes a pause? Who targets briefly?

I think it means that a mortar position can be easily destroyed by vehicles firing HE, using the target briefly order.
If that's the case, I disagree. Mortars are as tough as all other crewed weapons - as long as there is one man left standing, they fight at full efficiency.
A huge plus for mortars - the most important one in my opinion - is that they can fire anywhere they see. This is what changed the balance of power so dramatically vs CMx1, from big guns to mortars. Not the blast strength.

 

[Redwolf]

A huge plus for mortars - the most important one in my opinion - is that they can fire anywhere they see. This is what changed the balance of power so dramatically vs CMx1, from big guns to mortars. Not the blast strength.

There is the minimum firing distance, though. Not just for the heavy units, but e.g. US 81mm in SF2 is also annoying. 230m IIRC.

 

[Gorst]

I think it means that a mortar position can be easily destroyed by vehicles firing HE, using the target briefly order.
If that's the case, I disagree. Mortars are as tough as all other crewed weapons - as long as there is one man left standing, they fight at full efficiency.

Yeah, some rinse/repeat is necessary at times. My feelings are colored by the fact that I've been playing mostly Cold War recently. Soviet 125mm HE-Frag is mean.

 

[Gorst]

Also, this is why I like to house rule no Motivation higher than "normal". High Experience and Motivation ratings lead to unrealistic behaviors, IMO. So maybe one guy can technically operate a mortar but you should have to rally him from Broken! status first.

 

[Larsen]

If you chose the rule no motivation higher than "normal" then mortars become even deadlier. They cause casualties that have a devastating effect on morale. And In my experience it is really hard to knock mortars out. Target briefly won't cut it. You have to spend some time shelling the positions to actually knock the mortar out usually.

 

[Nemesis]

If you chose the rule no motivation higher than "normal" then mortars become even deadlier. They cause casualties that have a devastating effect on morale. And In my experience it is really hard to knock mortars out. Target briefly won't cut it. You have to spend some time shelling the positions to actually knock the mortar out usually.

Even if your mortar gets knocked out, you can run another mortar team over to the bodies of the knocked out mortar crew. They can then access the mortar ammunition of the dead crew.

Mortars are like cockroaches.

 

[Drifter Man]

There is the minimum firing distance, though. Not just for the heavy units, but e.g. US 81mm in SF2 is also annoying. 230m IIRC.

I can't remember ever having this problem in WWII... min range 230m could be limiting though.

 

[Stafford]

WWII mortars have a minimum range too, but it's around 50m or so IIRC.

 

[Drifter Man]

WWII mortars have a minimum range too, but it's around 50m or so IIRC.

That's right, 55-110 meters for medium mortars. It's so short that it rarely poses a real limitation.

 

[Stafford]

Funnily enough in my recent battle in the fog against @DoubleD I was actually running into this problem!

 

[Drifter Man]

Funnily enough in my recent battle in the fog against @DoubleD I was actually running into this problem!

My experience is distorted by playing in ideal weather conditions most of the time...

 

[Bulletpoint]

My experience is distorted by playing in ideal weather conditions most of the time...

I've also noticed that mortars become very inaccurate in windy conditions. I rarely play QB's with wind though, simply because I go crazy listening to the looping wind sound.

 

[ChuckDyke]

Here is a useful link I subscribed to. Go to 14:18 in the video a mortar doesn't need an FDC. The practical use is direct fire especially caliber to 81 mm.
Which I do especially as Soviets in Red Thunder to use them indirectly means a lot of time and ammunition is wasted.

 

[Artkin]

What you see is what you get.
Make artillery as powerful as it should be.