Seelow Heights DAR (vs Tchoup)

[Blady]

So, Tchoup and I have been battling out a few matches now, and they have been getting bigger and bigger. So we got ballsy and decided to for a huge scenario, and our choice fell on the Fire and Rubble scenario "Seelow Heights", representing part of the battle of the Seelow Heights (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Seelow_Heights). For those that like a (modern) google maps view, this is roughly the battlefield we are talking about: https://www.google.com/maps/@52.5398963,14.4199295,2999m/data=!3m1!1e3.

I do not think I am a particularly good player, so I decided to start a DAR not just to share the more then fair amount of tank pr0n that this battle will contain, but also to obtain real-time tips, tricks and advice from you guys while going through it. So feel free to criticize or otherwise comment on all of my actions. I do admit to being quite stubborn, so sometimes I might ignore your advice and will learn the lesson the hard way. I'm not such a detailed and attentive player like @Drifter Man, so expect slightly less detail here and more generic updates. But feel free to ask for more details!

So, here we go with my pre-battle analysis, and since the first turn is already played I'll post about that after this. I've opened up the scenario in the editor for part of my pre-battle analysis, but have not looked at anything but the map itself. So in terms of objectives and (enemy) units I rely solely on what I am given by the scenario designer.

Map and Objective

So the map is mostly flat and 2000x5000m big. The map starts on my side with very little concealment and cover and it's very flat with some very small height differences of at maximum 2 meters. That is hardly enough to hide a man, let alone a tank or a whole company of men. To make matter worse the land is criss-crossed by several moats or ditches. Crossing the map from north to south is the Hauptgraben, which only has 4 crossing points, 2 foot bridges where I will only be able to cross over with infantry, one stone bridge in the middle of the map where Reichstrasse 1 crosses the Hauptgraben and one "land bridge" where the Hauptgraben is interrupted to let a road cross over land. Then there is a collection of other ditches that usually do not connect to each other, but allows a small land crossing of 1-2 action spots to connect the different fields.

It's this flat until the forested slopes of the Seelower Heights. Just before the town those slopes start going upward and there is a good tree cover before opening up again on the heights itself. The town is about 50m above the lowlands where I start.

I am attacking from the east (right side) and have several objectives:
1. The crossing of Reichstrasse 1 and the Hauptgraben (the stone bridge)
2. The approach to Seelowe (roughly where it says "Reichstrasse 1" on the map)
3. The train station
4. The town of Seelowe

Conditions
The time is 8.00am, it's cold and there is a thick haze with maximum visibility of about 1000m. The ground is muddy. Muddy ground and a tank heavy force means that most likely even the small land crossings around the ditches are a risk, given that they are surrounded by muddy ground. This means that my tank-heavy force is seriously hampered by the ground conditions and will likely need to stick to roads for maneuvering...


Main terrain features

There are several terrain features I would like to highlight that I think are crucial:

• T1 is a slightly elevated (+1 meter) farmhouse with some trees and a stone wall that could be used for a firebase towards the bridge
• T2 is on the main approach to the bridge, has some trees and a small dip in the land, I'll be able to get a few tanks in a partial hull down position towards the expected enemy tank positions, and will likely serve as my armoured fire base in the push towards the bridge
• T3 is also slightly elevated (+2 meters) and can also serve as a fire base for assault guns/tanks in the push across the Hauptgraben
• T4 is a bushy area just before the foot bridge to T7 which will likely be the staging area for the infantry attack on T7
• T5 are the northern suspected enemy tank positions. There are 3 artificial hills there, perfect for hiding a tank behind in a hull-down position (see picture below)
• T6 are the southern suspected enemy tank positions, 2 artificial hills here
• T7 is a small foresty patch behind the stone bridge, most likely the enemy infantry base for defending the bridge
• T8 are the foresty slopes including the railway and railway station covering the approach to the town
• T9 are the first buildings of the town. The top floor has a view on the approach to Seelow
• T10 is the only part I could find of the Seelow Heights which has a view on the approach to Seelow, a good enemy tank/gun position.

The (suspected) artificial hills:


Enemy Forces
Not much is known. Briefing mentions that aerial reconnaissance indicates a line behind the hauptgraben and along the seelow heights. Looking at the map these seem the most logical points of defense. Given I have a very tank heavy force I can expect a fair share of Panthers, Tigers and King Tigers. Historically speaking I know there were quite a few King Tigers involved so I know I can expect them. There has also been a gruesome fighting around the train station historically, which, again, seems like a logical place for our infantry fight to take place too.

Friendly forces
Briefing mention I have the complete 104th Guards Heavy Tank regiment here, with elements of the 172nd Guards Rifle regiment. At setup I have about half of both, so i expect reinforcements to bring the rest of the 104th heavy tank regiment.

Reinforcements:
8.05: The rest of the 104th Guards Heavy Tank regiment
8.10: Elements of the 11th Guards Medium Tank brigade
8.15: Wave 1 of the 394th Assault Gun regiment
8.20: Wave 2 of the 394th Assault Gun regiment

Artillery:

• 2x 122mm Howitzer
• 1x 152mm Howitzer
• 2x 83mm Rockets
• 2x 132mm Rockets

All in all that means a lot of IS-2's, T34/85's and ISU-122/ISU-152's, accompanied by tank riders and other support elements, and a lot of fireworks by howitzers and rockets.

Plan of attack
Given the layout of the map and the weather conditions there is not much room for maneuver and I'll be more or less forced to have the Reichstrasse 1 as a main axis of attack. I will try to reach the first line through 3 axes, and from there I will detail my approach to Seelow a bit better. But in general I expect to push in the south first, then move towards pushing from the north:



Avenue 1: The main armored and infantry push towards the bridge. It's far from ideal, but with only muddy, open, ground as alternatives I think any other approach is even more suicidal
Avenue 2: An infantry push along the ditch towards KT44, crossing the foot bridge
Avenue 3: A smaller push with at most 1 company of T-34s in an attempt to outflank the southern defending tanks. They may get stuck in the mud crossing from the south to the north after crossing the Hauptgraben, so I will review once they are across wether they will push north or go back the long way by road depending on the situation then
Avenue 4: Let's cross the Hauptgraben first....

I preplanned the 132mm rockets on the expected tank positions and one of the 122mm batteries on harassing fire on the suspected infantry at KT7 in 15mins time. Hopefully that will give enough cover to set up the bases of fire...

Pressing red button now... wish me luck!

 

[Drifter Man]

Good luck!
Looking forward to following this. No, you don't have to count mortar rounds

 

[Blady]

Turn 1-3
Got hit my traffic management problem right on the first turn haha. My plan was to move the tanks forward on hunt not on the road itself but right next to it through the tree line. However, the TacAI decided to use the road instead. This caused traffic jams with the tanks moving back to the road, leading to one IS-2 going on a cross-country ride through one of the plowed fields next to the road... Luckily it didn't get bogged...

No contacts yet, everything is moving forward. General plan at the moment:



104th Heavy tanks, 1st company; I'm planning to set up them up as a fire base on about +/- 900m in front of the suspected enemy positions in the tree lines to the side of the road, hopefully exposing each tank only to one side. Their tank riders will dismount and scout out the farm house at T1 to the north (right) which I will use as a fire base for the 172th Rifle, 5th company

104th Heavy tanks, 2nd company; Will be kept backward a bit, will be used to "wedge" open the road to the bridge after the rocket/artillery strikes (or whenever I deem it safe enough). Tank riders will be kept mounted for now

172th Rifle, 4th Company; Will move along both sides of the ditch towards T4 until contact / 900m then stay low.

172th Rifle, 5th Company; Will move along attack Avenue 1 and set up firebase in and around the farmhouse at T1 if found clear by the tank riders

 

[Drifter Man]

Any firing plan? Looks like you have some idea about possible enemy positions and a lot of artillery, including artillery that may take long time to call.

 

[Blady]

Yes; at the 15 minute interval the following will fall down:

• 132mm rockets on the expected tank positions (left and right)
• 122mm battery on harassing fire (personnel setting) on the suspected infantry (middle)
• 83mm rocket on the suspected infantry (middle)

Sadly I realized on turn 2 that obviously instead of rocket firing the tank positions, I should have used the 122mm batteries to smoke those positions. There is zero wind and the hazy weather already restricts their sights enormously. I could have effectively moved up close to them and overwhelm them with my numbers. My observer is mounted on one of the tanks with the 2nd company heavy tanks so bringing it forward to start spotting something new would take quite a bit of time, so I guess I'll just have to roll with the plan I have...

That leaves me with the following batteries to be used further down the map:

• 1 full 122 mm how.
• 1 partial 122mm how. (what is left after stopping / redirecting the harrassing fire)
• 1 152mm how
• 1 83mm rocket

 

[Drifter Man]

Yep I somehow missed it in your first post.
Anyone sitting there will have a bad time in 15 minutes.

 

[Blady]

Turn 4
My tanks keep on cruising down the highway, until the lead tank spots something behind the small hill at T6a


The first spot is on me! It's a panther right where I suspected the tanks to be; behind these -I assume- artificially created hills to give the tanks hull down. The tank riders immediately dismount while the IS-2 takes aim... only to miss short of the hill. It'll likely take a few more shots to start hitting. Another tentative spot is made on T5c, but a solid spot does not materialize this turn. The other IS-2's pass the lead tank after it has stopped, but fail to spot any targets so continue their moves.

The enemy panther does not seem to have spotted me. Which is not that weird, since for some reason he seems to be buttoned up....

Also, I forgot to mention I have 2 Sturmoviks roaming around the battlefield. Briefing mentioned to assume any airplanes heard were friendly (not strange at this time in the war), and last turn I heard the plane approaching. It made it's attack early in this turn, creating a big crater near the south land crossing of the Hauptgraben. I didn't expect anything to be there, so unsure whether it hit something or it missed it's intended target at T6b just north of there. I guess I'll see later when my T-34's arrive there. They should be arriving on map in about 6 minutes, while next turn the rest of the 104th Guard Heavy Tank regiment is expected.

Overview:


Ps.: I also had the companies mixed up in my previous turn post. It was 2ns company leading the advance, not 1st.

 

[nektoman]

Recently I've started to play it vs AI.

I think you should move your tanks along avenue 1 in a close formation using both parallel roads. The main thing with these clumsy IS is not to hurry and hold the formation.
If I played it h2h I'd beware flanking tanks behind T1.

Good luck! Berlin is near!

 

[Blady]

Recently I've started to play it vs AI.

I think you should move your tanks along avenue 1 in a close formation using both parallel roads. The main thing with these clumsy IS is not to hurry and hold the formation.
If I played it h2h I'd beware flanking tanks behind T1.

Good luck! Berlin is near!

Thanks! I'll take that into account, for sure.

 

[Blady]

Turn 5
This turn pops up a few more contacts. Panthers on the south sides (T6), Tigers on the north side (T5). My second plane drop s a bomb close to a tiger, but I doubt it has done any damage to my oppo. An IS-2 gets the first kill of the game though, frontal penetration on the Tiger. targeted by my Sturmovik earlier. No return fire as of yet, apparently my oppo's tanks have trouble spotting my IS-2's on the road.

Overview:

 

[Blady]

Turn 6
My oppo's tanks are starting to spot, and their return fire is deadly. While quite a few return shots miss, 3 hit home om 2 IS-2's. One partial penetration with some armor spalling with no casualties. The other hits home though penetrating the tank and knocking it out. While the crew is bailing out a third shot from a tiger hits but bounces off. A few meters away the marksman accompanying the tank rider platoon HQ is killed in the explosion of the penetration. The tank rider platoon HQ is injured, but can continue to fight luckily.



Sadly the knocked out tank is the company HQ tank. Another IS-2 is also penetrated but nobody is hurt, but it does knock out the weapon controls. With still a working machine gun it will become useful later once I start advancing on the infantry positions, so I pull it back. 2nd company of the 104th Guards Heavy tank is now down to 3 working IS-2's.

I was expecting to face about 3 tanks per suspected position. This turns our to be more or less true. I have also correctly estimated where first contact would take place. However, a few flaws of my original plan immediately start to surface:

• I planned my base of fire on that first contact point with only one company of IS-2. Facing 6 panthers and 7 tigers in excellent hull-down positions with only 5 IS-2's exposed on the road.... how could that ever be a good idea?
• I have also planned each IS-2 to stop in a semi-hulldown position in light trees along the road. However, to allow the tank riders to jump off at the first sign of trouble I gave the IS-2's a hunt movement order, meaning that some of them started duking it out with the big cats while on the open road, totally exposed....
• I really should have smoked a few of the suspected tank positions so I could concentrate my fire better; right now I'm engaging too many targets at once

I'll try to salvage what I can next turn by driving all remaining tanks into the very small patches of trees. I'll also bring up 1st company to join in the tungsten-slugging-match. I've also tried to bring smoke to bear after all, but by doing so I discovered all artillery is tied to my one FO, no other HQ can direct fire for it. Also, the FO is deemed "busy" until the pre-planned fire plan is executed. That means artillery wise I've got to ride what I planned for now, and also I need to treat my FO very very carefully, as in terms of firepower available it is by far the most valuable unit I have.

Below an overview of my positions and plan, and the information I have so far on enemy forces:

My plan for the next couple of turns:

• Bring 1st company to the front and assist 2nd company as a fire base forward
• I'm not waiting for the T-34's to start flanking my oppo's southern armour positions; 3rd company will start this
• Wait for the arty to fall

What do you guys think? I feel a bit stuck and unsure on my plan to proceed, happy to hear your thoughts.

 

[Blady]

Turn 7-8
And the massacre goes on. Man oh man, there's so much tungsten flying around it's hard to keep track. I'm losing tanks at quite an alarming rate. There's not much left of my 2nd company of heavy tanks. Only one is still operational and it's certainly deserving a medal if it survives. It's had numerous ricochets now and 2 partial penetrations. No (serious) damage but it has killed 2 panthers already. Most of the companions he rode into battle with are gone though, I guess that's life for a Russian armour formation taking point. I've started keeping a scoreboard to keep track of things:


For enemy numbers these are semi-confirmed numbers. I am not sure of 1 panther, it was sitting right next to yet another bomb hit from one of my planes, and never got a full spot on it. But I've counted it as a working panther since I assume the bomb didn't do (enough) damage. One other Panther took a gun hit just before the end of the last turn, so I hope that's a broken gun...

All in all I'm not doing all bad, but I am not in a happy place. As said, most of 2nd company heavy tanks has been taken out, and also 1st company is starting to take casualties now. In terms of the tank riders the 2nd tanko platoon that riding the 2nd company is doing OK. They dismounted OK, and are making their way to T1. As suspected, and also warned by @nektoman this is not deserted. I have at least one infantry contact, who took out 1 of the men of 2nd tanko platoon. I'm smothering the contact with MG fire and a few HE rounds from the IS-2's of 4th company heavy tanks riding up to the slaughterhouse. The platoon is not in a nice place, on an open field with the Tiger wall on their left flank, but luckily the Tigers are pre-occupied with my IS-2's and their hull machine guns cannot fire (hull down after all ).


1st tanko platoon is in a very bad state though. I dismounted them too late, and they're getting hit by shrapnel from tungsten rounds hitting trees and exploding IS-2's. There are also a few mortar rounds falling around them, making matters worse. They've lost 8 men already so far, including the tanko CO. My observer was riding on the same tank as that CO, but luckily is still alive. His radio man is not though... I hope to salvage that radio later on, but for now my main priority is to get him the hell out of there.... I blame myself for getting in this mess. I should have dismounted 1st tanko platoon earlier, I had the chance. I just underestimated how far the fire of the Tigers and Panthers could reach.

4th company heavy tanks is moving up. I'm dismounting the sapper platoon they are carrying well beyond the reach of the panther and tiger fire. It does mean there's a turn's delay before they can reinforce 1st and 2nd company.

I've never learned how to use sappers properly. How can I use sappers in this scenario? Where to put them into use? I'd love to hear more, so far i've always been using them as infantry if there's no anti-personnel mines to clear up.

Some overview shots, first the Tigers at T5 (north):


The Panthers at T6 (south):


My 1st and 2nd platoon of heavy tanks:
(notice all the hits just form the last few seconds of the turn)

I've counted the abandoned tank as a KO in the scoreboard. There's only 2 crew members left alive, and that thing soaked up so much damage I doubt they can salvage anything from it. It has been diverting quite a few enemy shots/attention though, so that's something at least.

 

[Drifter Man]

Yeah I don't know about Tigers but I've tested IS-2 and Panthers. Panthers shoot more accurately but and more importantly, they can reload much faster - so they get more shots out and range in on your tanks faster than you can. Therefore, in a 1-on-1 long range duel I would bet on the Panther, all else being equal.
Can you wait for the artillery to force the enemy commanders to button up? Probably too late at this point.

Side note, does any of the sides actually fire tungsten core rounds in this fight? I think that would be an APCR/HVAP/APDS. Neither the big cats nor IS-2s use these as far as I know. T-34/85s may have some.

 

[Blady]

Yeah I don't know about Tigers but I've tested IS-2 and Panthers. Panthers shoot more accurately but and more importantly, they can reload much faster - so they get more shots out and range in on your tanks faster than you can. Therefore, in a 1-on-1 long range duel I would bet on the Panther, all else being equal.
Can you wait for the artillery to force the enemy commanders to button up? Probably too late at this point.

Thanks for that info. I did notice the ridiculous rate of fire on those panthers compared to the IS-2. Quite a few shots bounce off the IS-2, but just a few need to penetrate... And with those panthers in perfect hull down positions it is far form a 1-on1 baatle. So yeah, it is too late for 1st and 2nd company heavy tanks. I'm considering them lost for now. I need to keep them engaged to make sure my 2nd tanko platoon isn't killed by the Tigers out in the open, else I would pull the remainder (just a few tanks by now) back.

I am setting up a new advance with the arty in mind now. I'm not going to reinforce 1st and 2nd company heavy tanks with the 3rd and 4th company. Rather I will set them up to advance into firing distance quickly on positions focusing only on the panthers to the south together with the T-34/85s that should arrive next turn. I'll advance them into the battle right when the rockets start striking. Hopefully That will deal with them. I'll move to the tiger positions form there, or maybe roll up the infantry between the tigers and panthers first, so that I can flank the Tigers.

Side note, does any of the sides actually fire tungsten core rounds in this fight? I think that would be an APCR/HVAP/APDS. Neither the big cats nor IS-2s use these as far as I know. T-34/85s may have some.

Interesting, thanks for that. I just use tungsten as almost synonymous to AP. My bad

 

[Blady]

Turn 9
Just a small update. The Carnage continues. I'll try to get a video next turn, the amount of AP rounds going back and forth is amazing. It's like an infantry fight with 75/88mm rounds

I've taken out another Panther at the price of 2 more IS-2's, including my heroic last tank of the 2nd Company. It finally got a penetrating shot, killing everyone in the turret, leaving the driver to bail out. The tank registers as "Abandoned" in game, engine still running, so it'll still serve a purpose at least soaking up some more rounds. If the driver manages to find his way home I'll award a medal to him, even though he didn't have to do a lot himself during the battle. Just to honour his fallen comrades in the turret.

I decided not to reinforce 1st and 2nd company with 3rd company for now, see my answer to @Drifter Man 's post above this one.

The scoreboard:

(I miscounted the amount of Panthers last turn, I can only confirm 9 in total so far)

Edit: Forgot an important update: managed to pull my FO back to relative safety, for as far as any place is safe on a map this flat.

 

[nektoman]

I've never learned how to use sappers properly. How can I use sappers in this scenario? Where to put them into use? I'd love to hear more, so far i've always been using them as infantry if there's no anti-personnel mines to clear up.

I suppose their explosive bags (pictured in special ammunition window) can be used against tanks as AT-grenades. At least "Breach teams" with same bags do it.

 

[nektoman]

The Panthers at T6 (south):
View attachment 24557

It is sad that there are no T-34 on your left when these cats do expose their sidepieces so attractively.

 

[Blady]

It is sad that there are no T-34 on your left when these cats do expose their sidepieces so attractively.

That is exactly where I want my T-34s to go... Past T3, over the southern land bridge, into the soft underbelly of his defense.

I'm moving parts of the 4th company of the 172th Guards Rifle there as we speak to do a rough reconnaissance of T7, then the 3rd company of the 104th Guards Heavy Tank will move to T3 to establish a fire base, then, if all the timing makes sense, hopefully the T-34s will move to that nice, soft, underbelly after the rockets fall there.

Undoubtedly my timing is completely off again and everything will fall to bits. But just dreaming of these "cunning" plans is half the fun!

 

[Blady]

Turn 10-11
Reinforcements arrived. 1st company of the 11th Guard Medium Tanks arrive, consisting of 3 platoons of 3 T-34/85's each. That means 10 new freshly painted T-34s, together with their tank riders (1 company of 3 SMG platoons). This will be attempted-underbelly-piercing force to the southern Panthers.


The return fire of 1st and 2nd company has died down, while still receiving plety of fire from my oppo. There's only 2 fully working, and 1 immobilized IS-2' left, and their spotting is haphazard, mainly due to them being buttoned under constant fire. Those Is-2's are tough bastards, they take a lot of hits. There are 2 abandoned IS-2's standing there that continue soaking up hits, and even the ones still living have taken plenty of hits already. The ones still alive are getting low on AP ammo, so I do hope the same goes for my oppo's armour holds true.

I promised a small movie so made a movie of turn 9. I have to add that at this point the fire did die down in intensity quite a bit, but it's still fun to see I hope.

In other news I did manage to take out a wooden bunker while one of the Is-2's didn't have any target to fire at. Not the most noteworthy achievement, but I'd figured showing a good ol' explosion is never a bad thing on this forum.



So, my operation "tickling underbelly" is in full preparation. As I guessed my timing is likely completely off, so it will not be in sync with the rockets sadly. They are falling in 3 minutes' time, and no way are any of my t-34's going to be there on time. I am still rooting for most of my IS-2's to be in place though... but not all. and unloading the troops is going to be tricky. The general idea is to focus my remaining firepower on the panthers on the south, and leave the tigers in the north be for now. While trying to flank them is part of the plan, the main idea is mostly to concentrate the firepower. Once these panthers are gone in the south I can start moving infantry closer to T4 and start thinking about starting the infantry fight there, and thus also give another ability to outflank those tigers. Maybe by then I can start using my FO again and smoke them even further covering my approach to the bridge. But the tigers are a later concern, first without further ado, operation "tickling underbelly": <cue *tadaa* sound>



I think the medium tank company will not be in time, especially not because they are behind the slower tanks of the 3rd heavy tank company. So I will (try) to time the arrival of the 3rd heavy and 4th heavy tank company to T3 and T2 respectively to coincide with the rocket barrage. They are to focus on the panthers at T6a and T6b. Once panthers are eliminated, the rifle company will move up to T4 to mount an attack on T7.

Wonderful plan, and you all get to entertain yourself in the coming turn while it all falls to bits On to Berlin!

 

[Blady]

Turn 12
Have only been able to do one turn today, but a reasonably good one. My surviving IS-2's managed to knock out another Panther and knocked out (with high probability) one of the Tiger's guns. One of my IS-2's got hit on the tracks last turn and is immobilized, but it's still in the fight at least. So all in all not a bad score with 3 remaining IS-2's in teh fight against the Panthers and Tigers. This makes the score as follows:


So according to scoreboard I am trading tanks at about a 1:1 rate. This not completely bad as an attacker, but only slightly better then that in my book.
I was not too happy with the movie last turn, it did not show the extent of this metal-slugging contest. So while my troops are moving into position for the new offensive after Stalin's Organ (tm) has played it's beautiful tune, I've collected a bunch of screens showing the beating some of these heroic IS-2's of the front line have taken. Enjoy!

3 tanks that are still operational; the one right is still fully functioning (despite the penetration) and knocked out the panther this turn, before retreating. The other two have no main gun anymore.


This one got abandoned after the penetration killed the turret crew. After that, it styill served as German target practice for a good one and a half minute more before being knocked out.



Another IS-2 target practice object after it got abandoned.


On that last picture I'm a bit curious what these small caliber penetrations could be. Any ideas?