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Operation Konrad - Round 3 General Thread

I definitely agree that AAA vehicles in CM - when used against ground units - can break the game. Even though I do it occasionally, I dont like it.

So I agree that it is within the rules as they exist now, but I also think that this should not be allowed going forward.
 
At the very least, the Heavy Tank Battalion should be transformed to a SPAA battalion, given the present circumstances.
 
Hmm i think its okay to shoot ground with AA butt an AA is not an primery assault vehicle nor a core vehicle but only support...
 
Hello all-

First, I want to be clear.: @Drifter Man 's force selection was within the rules. He had the option of using either Armor or Armored Infantry as his core force, and having King Tigers as a formation or as single vehicles. He met the requirement that the majority of bonus points be spent on the intended Reserve unit - i.e., he purchased a King Tiger. (I don't think this is breaching OPSEC at this point). If he had not done the latter, I would have disallowed his start. I DO look at what everyone is doing.

Second: The rules give the GM (me) the authority to make mid-campaign adjustments in rules, including: "In the event that unit purchasing consistently generates negative player experiences and clear, ahistorical/unrealistic outcomes, addition purchasing restrictions may be enacted." There's no doubt that this is a NPE for @jackal , but I have to weigh a lot of things before making a change. Context is king.

Sometimes battles are won and lost at the unit purchase screen. We've all been on both sides of that, and this is one of those times. Had @jackal brought different forces, it may have been a different game. But, within the self-limited constraints of using an Infantry force, Jackal did buy based on what he expected to face (likely, up to a platoon of King Tigers with accompanying armored infantry). And while the battle outcome is not going to be ahistorical, the notion of a full company of AA halftracks storming all the way to the gates of Budapest certainly is. I contrast that with German 81mm mortars - being on the wrong side of those can be an NPE, but Germans having access to battalion mortars isn't ahistorical and it is reasonable to expect Soviets players to plan for it.

A key question is: To what extent does a player have the right to have foreknowledge of what he will be facing, or to be surprised? I think there is a fine balance here. At the CM QB level, by the time the QB is happening and two forces are colliding, there has likely been some OP reports, aerial or ground recon, SIGNINT, etc. that limits the element of surprise at the Map Unit (i.e., 5th SS Pz Div) and even at the formation level (i.e., "A panzer battalion is headed our way!"). Yet, detailed composition is and should be unknown. Finding the balance between players who love purchasing optimization that allows for some tactical surprises vs allowing reasonable foreknowledge is a challenge. Soviets in Tarjan who know a King Tiger battalion is headed their way might have to expect an infantry attack before the Germans commit KTs, but they would certainly be surprised if the entire AA vehicle strength of the V SS Panzerkorps comes over the hill.

A second key question is: To what extent should (or CAN) this campaign be historical? Although much of what I've tried to do is to be historical (maps, briefings, units, etc.), the collision with CM mechanics leaves much to be desired. If I had to do this again, I'd probably assign each unit a core formation for each battle and that's it. This would alienate the players that love purchasing, and its not something I am considering for mid-campaign. Either way, someone's not going to like it. You have to decide if this is OK for you.

I'm not (yet) telling you what I am changing. I am telling you what I am thinking, so that when a decision is made it doesn't feel arbitrary. It may not be the decision you want, but you are being heard.

What I am considering is:
1) Numeric limitations on support vehicles (AA, SPG, SPH). Possibly some, possibly all, need to think about how to clearly define this.
2) Explicitly enforcing a minimum purchase requirement when using an armored Reserve. This is tricky since a) KTs and ISs are really expensive, leaving fewer points for other, needed things, and b) I don't really want to create an environment where they are NEVER USED because of the expense. We should WANT to see these behemoths in the games!
3) Eliminating "Fog of War" for QB. Previously, each side would not explicitly know what formation they were facing prior to QB purchase. However, the battle briefings allowed astute players to figure this out....some of the time, but not others. That would not have impacted @jackal vs @Drifter Man , but it certainly impacts other games.

I'll review the time limit (45 vs 30 minutes) after this round, as well as the "Attack vs. Probe" standard. Each round provides more data. I'll make changes if the trend in winning and losing is defined by these parameters vs. the decision-making of commanders. For the record, it is my belief that Round 1 had good examples of both (sometimes at the same time ;) , whereas Round 2 was the latter - hence I made changes after Round 1, but not Round 2.

As for the 100% valid complaint about start delays, I will implement something for Round 4 so that there is a clear start time, a plan for alternative players to start a game if needed, and possibly a penalty for exceeding that start time other than for vacation/illness. I will clearer about start times (for me, I assumed you all assumed it was when I send the e-mail with battle parameters). Some folks love to test test test before starting, and I support this obsession but we will have limits. I really don't want to be in the business of picking folks' forces for them and starting a battle; far easier to play out something already started. But there will be a plan.

There's a lot of passion here, but it is (proverbially) "just a game," and one that neither side is clearly winning or losing yet. So, I don't see a reason to panic. As I've said before, I think the campaign will have worked well if it isn't decided before Round 6, because that means both sides had a good chance to win. Only you can decide if its something on which you want to spend your time.
 
Well I just want to re-state a thank you for putting this on. For me, this is the best CM tournament/campaign I have been a part of. And I know it is a LOT of work!!!
i agree, and am thoroughly enjoying the challenge. But also because of that, i dont like seeing gamey formations being introduced or allowed (for either side!). I think anyone running a CM campaign needs to always have limits on weapon/unit availability as human nature seems to dictate participants will choose numerous battle winners every time and then it quickly becomes a bore-off of wonder weapons. I'm sure all of us that took part in this wanted to fight historical battles that form the real historical campaign and think thats what OPO tried to recreate in the rules making a certain percentage 'core forces'. Even this has been manipulated to mean 'heavy weapons companies' instead of infantry companies etc. but at least it fits in the realm of possibility. I doubt there was ever a Real world scenario where umpteen AA HT's went into battle v an entrenched enemy, so can understand our red opponents feeling aggrieved, plus its a short term gain as it opens pandoras box for future rounds. I think it should be nipped in the bud ASAP tbh as i for one would quickly lose interest fighting trophy hordes. Just because its allowed in the rules in theory doesnt mean its in the spirit of the campaign.
 
First let me add my thank you to @OnePingOnly ... putting something like this together and running it is clearly a ton of work for the few guys that do it.. us players get the benefit of playing ... they do the work part....

Regardless of how you look at this particular case I think we all like a structure that permits some freedom of choice for the players. There is a danger of "overcorrecting" to prevent this (if u want to prevent it). I am not sure how long before WW2 the practice of making ad hoc formations became standard. But certainly during the war forming task force for a particular mission was very common for the US and for the Germans though they called them Kamgrouppen or something other impossilbe to spell German term for Combat Group.... Modern militaries are organized to make breaking down component parts and forming a task force specifically in mind. Just like the weapons company in a WW2 era infantry battalion... they were grouped together to make admin easier (everybody wants paid on time and a chance at promotion) but they knew the component parts would be attached to the line companies for combat ops... Just saying that staying exactly within the pre-made battalion formations in the force selector is not that realistic either
 
I didn't mean to kick up dust while the game is ongoing - it was a misplaced post. Thanks to @OnePingOnly for patiently managing the evolving campaign and for herding us kittens.

I will continue making QB purchases that I believe to be the best fit for the map and the mission, within specific constraints defined by the rules. For me, this is what Quick Battles are about. I've been in this debate several times before - including cases when I was on the receiving end of the "surprise". Nothing new here. Read the rules, know the formations, prepare.

@jackal appears to be fighting an uphill battle. I see several reasons for this - strategic decisions by the Soviet team, the map, my force composition, apparently some of his own force choices as well (within the narrow limits he has). We'll see how this plays out. Still plenty of time for developments. I don't know what is in store for me going forward.

SPW 251/21 is no Wunderwaffe (come on). It doesn't raze buildings in seconds. But it is cheap as chips when in a formation. If we are looking for a fix, it's the maximum numbers of vehicles we should be looking at.
 
Well I agree
I doubt there was ever a Real world scenario where umpteen AA HT's went into battle v an entrenched enemy, so can understand our red opponents feeling aggrieved

Actually I read about an instance where some AA vehicles (type wasn´t clarified) were massed up front to shoot up known or suspicious entrenched soviet positions to shock them. If I remember correctly it was in the memoirs of Otto Carius "Tigers in the mud". However the Tigers and infantry were the main force to push this position, while the AA vehicles retreated into a safe area after that. It was at dawn I believe to give those vehicles a chance to get into position unharmed. However those were surely not quite as many as in this fictional battle.

Not defending Drifter Mans selection of forces but never the less it is inside the rules as stated. It is a hard task between the historical part of things and players preferences and I salute OnePing to keep it in check.

We all learn in this instance here. There probably should be a unit limiter of some sort...I don´t know. The question is how much historical OnePing wants this to go.

I don´t really mind of what is gamey or not. I like the challenge of things and if I can defeat my oponent regardless the odds.
 
hmm i think i need to react to this aswell seeming its about my battle, i don't wanna trow mud or set people in bad day light that to be said..

lest first say i really am glad @OnePingOnly has created this campaing and can imagine how much effort it takes to make this all. and hear lots of criticism isn't nice....
im really glad i could join this expierance

first: i never blamed @Drifter Man that he didn't follow the rules of making forces, its only that u have like the creme de la creme of the german army the heavy tank battallion (kingtigers) and dont use it. its obvious in picture of the other armored units where there needs to be more armor in than just one tank, correct me if i am wrong. but guessing drifterman choose this halftrack force on the espect that he can see what forces i am going to use to the pre match setup screen if i got guards ( with IS) i would go for more kingtigers but he can see i took regular so he can go medieval with AAA halftracks because he knows he is only going to face infantry. from his sight a good move for shure, but i think gamewise it is not fair that someone can have such an advantage. so maybe for the next its better if oneping sets up te first file from the match... so no one can see what branch/force they are facing. because the way it now happens some people start already with 1-0 behind.

"SPW 251/21 is no Wunderwaffe (come on). It doesn't raze buildings in seconds. But it is cheap as chips when in a formation. If we are looking for a fix, it's the maximum numbers of vehicles we should be looking at." quoting this you say 2 thinks it is no wunderwaffen, no it isn't but if u know what ur opponents force limits are it can really be a wunderwaffe ( why buy 17 if it doesn't work ?) and cheap so buy tons of them because it isn't a game changer.... i can go futher into details but thats more for afther the match i think.

That being said about the shwerepanzerabteilung we can say it looks like they run out of fuel and left the kingtigers behind and set fort their halftracks this way i think the chit of heavytank battalion needs be removed and replaced by an AA chit because it looks like heavy tanks aren't needed.

second: on the point of 30 vs 45 minute matches i think round was was shure to short for the german attackers and i feeled like they where rushing and didn't get any time so im pro 45 minutes but think the maps/objectives need to be relined to with a change to 45 minutes. looking back to the first round of maps, where the matches where close and the second where the matches where just big german advantages. i think maps needs to be defender favored (because defenders choose terrein) but the attacker needs to get enought time to stage an proper attack.

enough being said, i never think CM is about winning or losing ( even tough i prefer winning) but about having a nice game, seeing tactics work or learn new tactics.
 
When getting ready for the battle, at no point it occurred to me that I should actually buy King Tigers after I saw that the defender is not a Guards unit (i.e. infantry only, no IS-2). It did not occur to me either that @jackal (or others) expected me to buy King Tigers in significant numbers - they are obviously the wrong choice here. They are tank killers, too expensive as assault guns. Instead the question was which kind of light support vehicle is the best for the job, and you know the answer. I went overboard with numbers because the formation allowed me to... possibly to my own detriment.

Importantly, I expected that jackal sees the map and the mission the same way and prepares accordingly. I don't see inside others' heads. I can't be asked to guess what my opponent thinks about the upcoming game and then shoot myself in the foot to give him a better chance (carefully, not too much, I want to win...).

I'm curious as to why the Soviet team deployed a strong armored reserve unit to the track, then gave up the opportunity to counterattack on a reasonably favorable map (Tolna ME) and instead let jackal defend tank country with an infantry unit. I thought it was the idea of the campaign that it has this strategic level. If the opposing team makes a mistake, we should take full advantage of it... not shoot ourselves in the foot to make the odds even again on the battlefield.

No change from me - I'm going to be playing my best game from the purchase screen to the last turn, assuming that my opponent does the same on his part. If a company of AA halftracks is the best game - and is allowed by the rules - then a company of AA halftracks will show up.
 
Ok guys - were in a bit of spiral here. Respectfully, let’s stop pointing fingers, attacking, and defending on what happened at Tarjan. It’s not productive and doesn’t help the general mood. You’ve all been heard, and I know all the reasons why the battle got to the place it has. There are many.

Talking about what to do from a rules stand point is encouraged and productive, especially pursuant to my thinking points in the post above ^.

@jackal I am liking your “OPO sets up turn 1 idea” as it levels the playing field for fog of war. It’s also not a lot of work for me :)
 
Ok guys - were in a bit of spiral here. Respectfully, let’s stop pointing fingers, attacking, and defending on what happened at Tarjan. It’s not productive and doesn’t help the general mood. You’ve all been heard, and I know all the reasons why the battle got to the place it has. There are many.

Talking about what to do from a rules stand point is encouraged and productive, especially pursuant to my thinking points in the post above ^.

@jackal I am liking your “OPO sets up turn 1 idea” as it levels the playing field for fog of war. It’s also not a lot of work for me :)
would having the players set the force to mix when setting up the quick battle help with the fog of war........ once the player is actually picking the force he usually knows with he has available to pick from................... u would need to double check their starting force...maybe have them screenshot picks and send to u privately...
 
The good thing about @jackal 's idea is that I just set up the battle parameters myself - importantly, including the Germany Army vs. SS/Soviet vs Guards - based on what each side has told me re: the units they want to use. Then, I don't have to post the battle set-up instructions in the main thread, which sometimes provides critical information to an opponent. I use the password already assigned to Player 1, and its off to Player 2. In each private thread I would still post the reminder e-mail re: what formations YOU can use.
 
The good thing about @jackal 's idea is that I just set up the battle parameters myself - importantly, including the Germany Army vs. SS/Soviet vs Guards - based on what each side has told me re: the units they want to use. Then, I don't have to post the battle set-up instructions in the main thread, which sometimes provides critical information to an opponent. I use the password already assigned to Player 1, and its off to Player 2. In each private thread I would still post the reminder e-mail re: what formations YOU can use.
i understand the that leting the parameters out causes some also makes some info on enemy forces available..... the titles i play more often would know this better......... but let me ask ..... does it give an exact type of force away ......... or does it just narrow down the possiblitites in most cases..... if for example in narrows down my guess on the enemy units from 4 options...to just 2........

is it something u can live with if that is what it does because fixing it adds a lot of work to fix.... and... can even be realixticly explained away most of the time forces about to go into battle have a resonable ideal of what they will likely be facing .... most of the time any surprise is more likely to be the amount of tanks they had.... not the fact that they had tanks... for example...... having the players lock choieces at the same time without any proir knowlede of what and where the other guy was bringing... this might leave one side with a bad overall match up but still give them a chance to compensate during force selection as much poslible if one guy took an infantry unit not expecting them to bring tands... and then finds out they are bringing tanks .. theywould hat least be able to bring more PZ shrieks for example..... also seems like a realitic part of of a campainge....

all this is just me tossing some ideals out to u ...... .and being glad the only thing i have to do is play the game in front of me.....
 
The good thing about @jackal 's idea is that I just set up the battle parameters myself - importantly, including the Germany Army vs. SS/Soviet vs Guards - based on what each side has told me re: the units they want to use. Then, I don't have to post the battle set-up instructions in the main thread, which sometimes provides critical information to an opponent. I use the password already assigned to Player 1, and its off to Player 2. In each private thread I would still post the reminder e-mail re: what formations YOU can use.
I support the idea, I just see two things to keep in mind:
  • Player 2 will still see the battle setup on the briefing screen before he has to send the file back to Player 1, but that's fine if we just play honestly and don't go back to rework the purchase.
  • It will only make a difference if at least one side has a choice. If the defender must use infantry (having nothing else to choose from), the attacker can still bring a company of AA halftracks.
 
I support the idea, I just see two things to keep in mind:
  • Player 2 will still see the battle setup on the briefing screen before he has to send the file back to Player 1, but that's fine if we just play honestly and don't go back to rework the purchase.

The Briefing button is disabled during map preview (it's there, but clicking on it does nothing). Off-hand, I can't think of any way for player 2 to see the briefing before his setup (file 004).

  • It will only make a difference if at least one side has a choice. If the defender must use infantry (having nothing else to choose from), the attacker can still bring a company of AA halftracks.

That is true, although I am personally far less concerned about AA halftracks than some of my teammates.
 
The Briefing button is disabled during map preview (it's there, but clicking on it does nothing). Off-hand, I can't think of any way for player 2 to see the briefing before his setup (file 004).
The button is disabled, but the second player sees the briefing after loading file 002 and finishing the purchase when he proceeds straight to setup, before creating file 003.
 
What I plan to do here is to go ahead and use this mechanism. Yeah, a jerk could re-do his purchase after seeing the briefing, but hopefully no one is THAT jerky for this game. DON'T BE A DOUCHE. If there is only one side that has multiple possibilities for their force, then they'll be player 2. If both have options, then Player 2 is the defender, or the Soviets for MEs.
 
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