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Operation Konrad - Round 3 General Thread

Quick update:
Brille vs. Aurelius (Tokod) - 9 minutes remaining
Cargol vs. Gorst (Budapest) - 7 minutes remaining
Guardsman vs. Monty's Mighty Moustache (Osi) - 5 minutes remaining
Shady vs. Spoogles - Completed, Soviet victory
Chap vs. Bleskaceq - Completed, German victory
Drifter Man vs. Jackal - Completed, German victory

I am getting the final polishes on the map options for next round. I'll probably start a Round 4 thread this weekend so that we can quickly go into a few days of next round planning when the Round 3 games wrap up.

Once the round is done, I'll make any final rules tweaks and publish those.

Thank you, everyone, for staying on top of turns this round - and especially to those of you that were away for real life and then caught back up. I appreciate it.
 
With one battle left at Dorog in the final 3 minutes, here is the situation:

Rd3 NEarly Done.jpg

The Soviets have captured Rose Hill in Budapest, destroying PzDivision Feldherrnhalle. They will pick one of the other 5 Budapest Zones for Round 4, and the Germans will be able to re-arrange their forces.

On the Puszta Track, the Soviets @Spoogles defended Balatonfokajar (again), destroying A Bn of the 96th Infantry @Shady Side . The Round 4 battle will be a German attack at Balatonfokajar.

On the Velence Track, the Soviets @Monty's Mighty Moustache defended Osi in a Draw, losing A Bn of the 20th Guards while destroying the 1st Panzer Division @Guardsman . The Round 4 battle will be a German attack on Osi. Incidentally, this was one of my favorite battles of the series thus far.

On the Vertes Mtn Track, the Germans @dkchapuis captured Csakvar while destroying the 5th Guards Cavalry Corps @Bleskaceq . The Soviets will have to use a Reserve move to place a Reserve unit on this track for Round 4. The Round 4 battle will either be a German Meeting Engagement at Bickse, or a Soviet counterattack Meeting Engagement at Csakvar.

On the Gerecse Mtn Track, the Germans @Drifter Man captured Tarjan while destroying the 23rd Rifle Corps @jackal . The Round 4 battle will either be a German Meeting Engagement at Germely, or a Soviet counterattack Meeting Engagement at Tarjan.

On the Pilis Mtn Track, the game still has a few turns left @Brille @Aurelius . Depending on the outcome and choices made by the 2 teams, the Round 4 battle can be 1) a German Meeting Engagement at Piliszentlelek (say that 3 times fast) , 2) a German meeting engagement at Dorog, or 3) a Soviet counterattack at either Dorog or Tokod. This latter could be either a ME or a Soviet probe, depending on the forces involved.

Once the last game ends, I'll post a timetable for making next round decisions and starting play.

Tentative maps are located here:
https://www.dropbox.com/home/Op Konrad/Op Konrad QB Maps
I may change them in minor ways before the round start, but they should give you a good idea what to expect.

Lastly, if anyone wants or needs to bow out, please let me know so I can look for replacements.
 
The last battle of Round 3 is now complete, with a Soviet Minor Victory at Dorog.

Round 2 Close-Out:
Below is the campaign map as of end of Round 3:
Round 3 End.jpg

The Soviets have captured Rose Hill in Budapest, destroying PzDivision Feldherrnhalle. They will pick one of the other 5 Budapest Zones for Round 4, and the Germans will be able to re-arrange their forces.

On the Puszta Track, the Soviets @Spoogles defended Balatonfokajar (again), destroying A Bn of the 96th Infantry @Shady Side . The Round 4 battle will be a German attack at Balatonfokajar.

On the Velence Track, the Soviets @Monty's Mighty Moustache defended Osi in a Draw, losing A Bn of the 20th Guards while destroying the 1st Panzer Division @Guardsman . The Round 4 battle will be a German attack on Osi. Incidentally, this was one of my favorite battles of the series thus far.

On the Vertes Mtn Track, the Germans @dkchapuis captured Csakvar while destroying the 5th Guards Cavalry Corps @Bleskaceq . The Soviets will have to use a Reserve move to place a Reserve unit on this track for Round 4. The Round 4 battle will either be a German Meeting Engagement at Bickse, or a Soviet counterattack Meeting Engagement at Csakvar.

On the Gerecse Mtn Track, the Germans @Drifter Man captured Tarjan while destroying the 23rd Rifle Corps @jackal . The Round 4 battle will either be a German Meeting Engagement at Germely, or a Soviet counterattack Meeting Engagement at Tarjan.

On the Pilis Mtn Track, the Soviets @Aurelius were able to defend with a combined arms force and destroyed the 219th Sturmpanzer Abteilung @Brille . The Round 4 battle will be 1) a German meeting engagement at Dorog, or 2) a Soviet counterattack at either Dorog or Tokod. This latter could be either a ME or a Soviet probe, depending on the German forces involved. This was another of my favorite battles thus far. @Brille had a lot of ground to cover, and @Aurelius had a wide area to defend. @Aurelius conducted a very good, non-static defense.

Here's the stats through Round 3:
Round 3 Stats.jpg

What went well:
Good turn rates from everyone, especially those who needed to catch up.
As always - I recognize that real life interferes and comes first. Just make sure you communicate with your opponent (and me).

With maybe one exception, I still think the battle length was good this round. All but one game was competitive to almost the end. Your individual perspective may differ, but that's the way it looks from my All-Seeing Eye. Whether I shorten all battles to 30 minutes, make them all 45, or handle each battle individually and somewhere in between, it will be wrong at some point, so I will just continue to make decisions and receive feedback.

Adjustments:
I'll codify the rules changes proposed for Round 3, to reduce some NPEs. That will be in an updated Rules thread.

Schedule for Round 4 will be in the new Round 4 thread.

Onward!
 
OnePingOnly said:
'll codify the rules changes proposed for Round 3, to reduce some NPEs. That will be in an updated Rules thread.
Click to expand...
The rules are starting to look like an international convention. We will need to appoint an arbitration or an organ like International Court of Justice to interpret the rules...
 
''With maybe one exception, I still think the battle length was good this round. 'In our conversation, I thought that you were adamant that choosing 45 minutes for the Hill battle was a mistake. Have you reconsidered?
@OnePingOnly
 
Cargol said:
''With maybe one exception, I still think the battle length was good this round. 'In our conversation, I thought that you were adamant that choosing 45 minutes for the Hill battle was a mistake. Have you reconsidered?
@OnePingOnly
Click to expand...
U mean shorter for budapest? Hmm defending in mostly urban takes time to assault i think that 45 minutes is quiete realistic for us to get a chance
 
Cargol said:
''With maybe one exception, I still think the battle length was good this round. 'In our conversation, I thought that you were adamant that choosing 45 minutes for the Hill battle was a mistake. Have you reconsidered?
Click to expand...
I'm not exactly what this means, or perhaps I am missing the intent.
I stated that when setting up the battle, I thought 30 minutes was too short for the map. I originally proposed 40 but CM doesn't allow that option, so I set at 45. Some German players weighed in after the battle start to say 45 was too long, and the Soviets I'm sure think it's about right.
 
OnePingOnly said:
I'm not exactly what this means, or perhaps I am missing the intent.
I stated that when setting up the battle, I thought 30 minutes was too short for the map. I originally proposed 40 but CM doesn't allow that option, so I set at 45. Some German players weighed in after the battle start to say 45 was too long, and the Soviets I'm sure think it's about right.
Click to expand...
let me ask a silly question... do all battles have to be the same or can it be a case by case choice made by the GM
 
Gorst said:
I just need to state that 45 minutes is too long for any battle in which I am defending but just right for when I am attacking. @OnePingOnly , please adjust accordingly. Thank you.
Click to expand...
In my case, I am always defending so I am trying to make sure that the whole thing is fair. So let me elaborate a bit on my previous post. I have stated that :
''There is no way to win a battle with this parameters and in these settings. GM by extending by 50% the battle time limit just made sure that the Russians can win and advance.
I do understand that having more balanced results is what makes a tourney more fun but there is also the chance that by constantly changing the rules will put some people off. Just my two cents.''
And then the GM replied :
''just for the record, I didn’t increase the time from 30 to 45 minutes because the Soviets had not yet won in Budapest and I wanted them to have a shot. (And this may not be what you are thinking, but I am saying it nonetheless). I made it 45 minutes because I thought the much larger map with much more difficult terrain needed more than 30 minutes for the Soviets to have any chance at all. A second reason is because my original plan for 40 minutes doesn’t have that option in the QB setup, and I did not want to rely on manual cease-fire.''
That argument for me was not valid so I replied that :
''Now, do not get me wrong, I do appreciate all your efforts as GM and for putting together this tourney. However, you need to get your facts straight.
Margit island map (the previous game) is a 624x1088 meters map while Rosehill is a 672x 560 meters map. So your argument that Rosehill is a much larger map is not valid. Actually, from the Russian set up zone the first objective is 213 meters away and the other objective is 390 meters away. Terrain argument is subjective so I will not comment.
In any case, as you have rightfully pointed out this is your baby and we are guests so we take it or leave it. We do have the right to comment and leave our feedback though.''
To which I got the reply;

''Cargol you are correct about the map size. Not sure what map I was thinking about when I responded,,,and now I'm not so sure what I was thinking about with the size when I made the decision. Fudge...I guess I'm officially old now :( . Apologies.I try not to act like this is all "my baby." Someone has to make decisions, but I try to operate under the principle that the campaign is for the participants. That means being listening and responsive to feedback.''
Now, I was little surprised when I saw at the wrapping up of the turn that all was fine and everything went well.
Again, do not get me wrong I am just stating the facts here.
@OnePingOnly
 
Cargol said:
Actually, from the Russian set up zone the first objective is 213 meters away and the other objective is 390 meters away. Terrain argument is subjective so I will not comment.
Click to expand...

This round I'm defending an objective that is only 188m from the German setup zone, and unlike Rose Hill -- which had rows of buildings between to defend -- there is no defensible terrain at all. The other two objectives are 236m and 350 meters from the German setup zone. For 45 minutes, mind you.

Life is hard for everyone on the East Front. Well, maybe not for Drifter. He has King Tigers. But everyone else for sure.

impossible.png
 
Cargol said:
In my case, I am always defending so I am trying to make sure that the whole thing is fair. So let me elaborate a bit on my previous post. I have stated that :
''There is no way to win a battle with this parameters and in these settings. GM by extending by 50% the battle time limit just made sure that the Russians can win and advance.
I do understand that having more balanced results is what makes a tourney more fun but there is also the chance that by constantly changing the rules will put some people off. Just my two cents.''
And then the GM replied :
''just for the record, I didn’t increase the time from 30 to 45 minutes because the Soviets had not yet won in Budapest and I wanted them to have a shot. (And this may not be what you are thinking, but I am saying it nonetheless). I made it 45 minutes because I thought the much larger map with much more difficult terrain needed more than 30 minutes for the Soviets to have any chance at all. A second reason is because my original plan for 40 minutes doesn’t have that option in the QB setup, and I did not want to rely on manual cease-fire.''
That argument for me was not valid so I replied that :
''Now, do not get me wrong, I do appreciate all your efforts as GM and for putting together this tourney. However, you need to get your facts straight.
Margit island map (the previous game) is a 624x1088 meters map while Rosehill is a 672x 560 meters map. So your argument that Rosehill is a much larger map is not valid. Actually, from the Russian set up zone the first objective is 213 meters away and the other objective is 390 meters away. Terrain argument is subjective so I will not comment.
In any case, as you have rightfully pointed out this is your baby and we are guests so we take it or leave it. We do have the right to comment and leave our feedback though.''
To which I got the reply;

''Cargol you are correct about the map size. Not sure what map I was thinking about when I responded,,,and now I'm not so sure what I was thinking about with the size when I made the decision. Fudge...I guess I'm officially old now :( . Apologies.I try not to act like this is all "my baby." Someone has to make decisions, but I try to operate under the principle that the campaign is for the participants. That means being listening and responsive to feedback.''
Now, I was little surprised when I saw at the wrapping up of the turn that all was fine and everything went well.
Again, do not get me wrong I am just stating the facts here.
@OnePingOnly
Click to expand...
Perhaps he extended the time because although the map is smaller it is urban? Margit Island may well be bigger but it's significantly more open.
 
Cargol said:
''With maybe one exception, I still think the battle length was good this round. 'In our conversation, I thought that you were adamant that choosing 45 minutes for the Hill battle was a mistake. Have you reconsidered?
Click to expand...
I said I didn't really understand the question or comment. When saying "With maybe one exception...," I was referring to the Budapest battle, and "maybe" means that maybe 45 minutes was too long. "Adamant" would mean 100% certain. I don't think anything I have said indicates certainty that 45 minutes was a mistake. In the German team conversation, I basically said "I hear you," and that my rationale for setting at 45 minutes was taking into account the highly urban nature of the fight, and I couldn't set at 40 within the game engine. I should have also added I compared the map size and objective layout to Berlin game scenarios and Gunner's CMRT tourney battle which was smaller, had 2-up,1-back objectives, and no huge kill zones for the attacker to cross. The latter proved very difficult to hold for 30 minutes, so I felt this one should be longer. I should have also added that all of the Budapest maps (unlike most of the Track maps) did get playtested, so that experience influenced my decision.

I know you think 45 minutes was too long and impossible to win. I have to recognize that @Gorst played a very good game; perhaps it would not have been a Soviet victory otherwise. I have to take into account that the Soviets only outright captured the objective that you chose not to defend, and infiltrated the other 2 objectives in the final minutes.

30 minutes would have been too short. More than 45 too long. I'll make similar judgements for the other Budapest maps. and try to implement as best as I can, including use of cease-fire.
From the rules* : "Length of Battle – 30 minutes, or as specified by GM"

To be honest, I'm done rehashing the subject over and over. I've listened to feedback and will use that feedback in the future.

*subject to International Court of Arbitration
 
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