I think the spotting cycle varies with distance though. Also the time to aim and fire could vary. Once they get the range, they should be firing faster.
Three Towns (Stafford vs Drifter Man DAR)
- Thread starter Drifter Man
- Start date
We're getting close to discovering the whole CM mythology 
The spotting cycle is 7 seconds at all distances. Every 7 seconds the AFV updates what it can see. The probability of spotting something varies with distance and other factors, but apparently the timing does not.
Aiming time varies with distance - generally becomes longer at longer distances, although I've read that at very short distance it becomes longer as well. Aiming time is practically the same for the first and the second shot. I did not test 3rd and subsequent shots. I also did not test situations when the vehicle has contact, fires, loses contact, reacquires contact and fires again.
5-6 seconds aiming time works for 400 meters, at 300 meters it will be around 5.
I've been testing spotting as well as gun accuracy and aiming times.
The spotting cycle is 7 seconds at all distances. Every 7 seconds the AFV updates what it can see. The probability of spotting something varies with distance and other factors, but apparently the timing does not.
Aiming time varies with distance - generally becomes longer at longer distances, although I've read that at very short distance it becomes longer as well. Aiming time is practically the same for the first and the second shot. I did not test 3rd and subsequent shots. I also did not test situations when the vehicle has contact, fires, loses contact, reacquires contact and fires again.
5-6 seconds aiming time works for 400 meters, at 300 meters it will be around 5.
I'm sure I read somewhere that spotting cycles are faster at close ranges to avoid weird situations, but maybe that's only for infantry.
Yes, there's a special delay added for AFVs to aim at extreme short distances. This is to give infantry a better chance to close assault, I think.
B
Blady
Guest
This explains some of the weird behavior I have seen at close ranges. I think this had better be solved by being less accurate at short ranges against infantry. CM does not model the agility of a human in close quarters very well. A human would not sit/lie/stand still while he sees a 75mm barrel adjusting to point straight at him.
B
Blady
Guest
Also visibility at close ranges, especially against infantry for me feel unrealistic at times. A tank is a big metal box with a few vision slits that are not all actively used at all times, where you hear just about nothing of the outside world due to a roaring engine. From what I understand, infantry was much more deadly at close range for tanks then CM models.
Here's the official post where Steve from BFC says the spotting cycle is variable:
Stupid STUG AI behavior
Can we please rethink the AI behavior for STUG crews when using the secondary MG on the roof ? These idiots always pop their heads out even when the STUG itself has the "button" command. They will do that (and die of course) until 2 crew members are left ... and starting to panic .... ridiculous....
I have seen some situations when buttoned up tanks were immediately aware of infantry hiding right next to them. But not enough to say it is a problem. Need more experience.
Thanks for digging it up. Good to know. My tests are from 200 m and up, where the 7-second clock ticks regularly.Here's the official post where Steve from BFC says the spotting cycle is variable:
Stupid STUG AI behavior
Can we please rethink the AI behavior for STUG crews when using the secondary MG on the roof ? These idiots always pop their heads out even when the STUG itself has the "button" command. They will do that (and die of course) until 2 crew members are left ... and starting to panic .... ridiculous....community.battlefront.com
K
KGBoy
Guest
Spotting cycle is a new idea to me. Reminds me of John Vaillant's book The Tiger. You could be ten feet from it and never see it even though it is yellow and black and the snow is white. Oops! The key to the tiger leap is the shoulder clavicles are not attached but free floating.
I'll keep that in mind for when someone attempts to get a Tiger within 10 feet from me.
Right now I am 10 feet from a Cromwell and can't see it. Too much smoke...
Right now I am 10 feet from a Cromwell and can't see it. Too much smoke...
1400 hrs, Turn 70. Our spotting cycle debate was academic. The StuG waited for 10 seconds, saw nothing and withdrew as ordered. My opponent also moved the two Cromwells out of danger, and I can hear a third one moving back in to reinforce. The StuG is now turning around using @KGBoy 's maneuver and I am sending it back north to intervene at the Orchard against the Stuart.
The enemy mortar strike against North Ridge ends. All my casualties are caused by the last two rounds that fall. The first one hits the HQ of the 2nd Company's 4th Platoon, the radio operator is lost. The second one strikes right on the MG team that was the target all along - 3 casualties, everyone else is injured. The second mortar strike on my overwatch position in the rear also ends, having spent 64 rounds for one casualty. I am still waiting for a minute before moving anything - my opponent could be adjusting fire to drop the remaining rounds of this mortar section on some other place.
Some activity is reported in Louvoy. Last turn a Company HQ arrived on a jeep. Now some infantry is seen moving into the buildings, and I have again a tentative contact on the AT gun. I would like to have a solid one to see if it is still operational before I spend more 150mm rounds on it.
On Hill 36 I have the immobilized Cromwell completely shrouded in smoke. Two infantry teams are in the smoke with it, a few meters away, but I'll have to wait for the smoke to disperse and hope for the best. One team is there for cover, the second one has a Panzerfaust 30K and gets a target armor arc order on the position of the Cromwell.
The main story is that I am sending 1/7 Platoon on halftracks to reinforce Hill 36. My opponent will want to intervene - a group of halftracks loaded with fresh infantry is a tempting target. I could not find an angle from which he could do it, but I have noticed how he repositioned the halftrack on Hill 33 to a position from which he could get a shot at my halftracks. It can also be a coincidence - he may be intending to do something else - but I will lay smoke on Hill 33 to hopefully prevent him from causing trouble.
Finally, an overhead shot to get you oriented
The enemy mortar strike against North Ridge ends. All my casualties are caused by the last two rounds that fall. The first one hits the HQ of the 2nd Company's 4th Platoon, the radio operator is lost. The second one strikes right on the MG team that was the target all along - 3 casualties, everyone else is injured. The second mortar strike on my overwatch position in the rear also ends, having spent 64 rounds for one casualty. I am still waiting for a minute before moving anything - my opponent could be adjusting fire to drop the remaining rounds of this mortar section on some other place.
Some activity is reported in Louvoy. Last turn a Company HQ arrived on a jeep. Now some infantry is seen moving into the buildings, and I have again a tentative contact on the AT gun. I would like to have a solid one to see if it is still operational before I spend more 150mm rounds on it.
On Hill 36 I have the immobilized Cromwell completely shrouded in smoke. Two infantry teams are in the smoke with it, a few meters away, but I'll have to wait for the smoke to disperse and hope for the best. One team is there for cover, the second one has a Panzerfaust 30K and gets a target armor arc order on the position of the Cromwell.
The main story is that I am sending 1/7 Platoon on halftracks to reinforce Hill 36. My opponent will want to intervene - a group of halftracks loaded with fresh infantry is a tempting target. I could not find an angle from which he could do it, but I have noticed how he repositioned the halftrack on Hill 33 to a position from which he could get a shot at my halftracks. It can also be a coincidence - he may be intending to do something else - but I will lay smoke on Hill 33 to hopefully prevent him from causing trouble.
Finally, an overhead shot to get you oriented
K
KGBoy
Guest
Is that 8 tanks on Hill 36!?
Yes, I believe that's accurate. Latest info is one Firefly, 1 Crusader AA, 6 Cromwells.
1402 hrs, Turns 71-72. I was right about one thing: loaded halftracks make too tempting a target. I was wrong about everything else. Stafford did not need any "angle" on them, he just put his tanks on the crest of Hill 36 - in full view of my StuGs and at close range from my infantry - something I did not expect he would do. He also found two "angles", the one from Hill 33 I blocked by smoke and the other that I did not identify but from which he would be able to fire at the halftracks when they go further up the hill. Anyway, this is what went wrong for me:
The lead halftrack makes it through, but that one was not carrying any passengers. The second one gets shot right through by a 17pdr right through - 10 casualties (crew + the panzergrenadier squad on board). The third one just enters the kill zone at the end of Turn 71, but I manage to pull it back to safety. On the hill I order 3rd Platoon to assault the tanks and the fighting devolves in a chaotic brawl that I wanted to avoid. 3rd Platoon fights well and the British infantry protecting the tanks suffers casualties, but my opponent has tanks in the game and I don't - and importantly, I can't seem to be able to put holes in those tanks no matter what I do. A Panzerfaust is launched at the Firefly but misses. A Cromwell sights a charging infantry team and guns them down before they sight the tank.
More action around the immobilized Cromwell in the smoke. Stafford will be able to save it - I cannot destroy it. He sent infantry right into the smoke, where they ran into my infantry. My guys came out on top, but even though they were not shot at, they panicked from meeting the enemy at such proximity.
One team of two men went right towards the enemy - this video captures his last moments.
More fighting at the Orchard - two enemy casualties, one mine.
Not sure how to solve this situation. I am outnumbered by enemy tanks, trying, and consistently failing, to destroy any of them. Each attempt becomes an opportunity for my opponent to cause more losses and improve his score, while my score remains poor. Now it is turning out that my foothold on Hill 36 can be short-lived. If I cannot reinforce the position, I am not getting anywhere.
- As always, Stafford found a host of keyhole positions for his tanks, from which they could see everything but could not be seen from anywhere
- StuGs can see, in theory, in practice there is too much foliage in the way - two minutes in one has a tentative contact, that's all
- Buttoned up tanks show better awareness at close ranges than infantry, even in woods (mentioned here before; similar situation to the charge of the Stuarts at North Ridge early in this battle)
- Panzerfaust 30 makes a poor AT weapon
The lead halftrack makes it through, but that one was not carrying any passengers. The second one gets shot right through by a 17pdr right through - 10 casualties (crew + the panzergrenadier squad on board). The third one just enters the kill zone at the end of Turn 71, but I manage to pull it back to safety. On the hill I order 3rd Platoon to assault the tanks and the fighting devolves in a chaotic brawl that I wanted to avoid. 3rd Platoon fights well and the British infantry protecting the tanks suffers casualties, but my opponent has tanks in the game and I don't - and importantly, I can't seem to be able to put holes in those tanks no matter what I do. A Panzerfaust is launched at the Firefly but misses. A Cromwell sights a charging infantry team and guns them down before they sight the tank.
More action around the immobilized Cromwell in the smoke. Stafford will be able to save it - I cannot destroy it. He sent infantry right into the smoke, where they ran into my infantry. My guys came out on top, but even though they were not shot at, they panicked from meeting the enemy at such proximity.
One team of two men went right towards the enemy - this video captures his last moments.
More fighting at the Orchard - two enemy casualties, one mine.
Not sure how to solve this situation. I am outnumbered by enemy tanks, trying, and consistently failing, to destroy any of them. Each attempt becomes an opportunity for my opponent to cause more losses and improve his score, while my score remains poor. Now it is turning out that my foothold on Hill 36 can be short-lived. If I cannot reinforce the position, I am not getting anywhere.
K
KGBoy
Guest
All this extra equipment the Allies get is enough to pull your hair out! Airplanes, tanks and guns, oh my! sez Dorothy.
Axis 1/2traks are just not worth the expense over the points deficit it is seeming to me. How fast do Axis recover from exhaustion at various experience levels seems a worthy test to run...
Axis 1/2traks are just not worth the expense over the points deficit it is seeming to me. How fast do Axis recover from exhaustion at various experience levels seems a worthy test to run...
Yeah the 6 Cromwells, 2 Stuarts, 3 Fireflies and 1 Crusader AA that I have positively ID'd so far cost ~2300 points. Still 700 more to our 3k limit! And note that Stafford chose Cromwells over the cheaper and better Shermans (he may have done it for speed in the first turns - Cromwells are very fast).All this extra equipment the Allies get is enough to pull your hair out! Airplanes, tanks and guns, oh my! sez Dorothy.
Axis 1/2traks are just not worth the expense over the points deficit it is seeming to me. How fast do Axis recover from exhaustion at various experience levels seems a worthy test to run...
The halftracks can be great but only in the right situation.
I can't remember what the price difference is, but I recently found out that the Cromwell 75mm gun is quite a bit better than the Sherman gun, so there's that too.
Kind of interesting, as I don't think the 17 pounder had any explosive filling .. I'd think it would just go straight through a halftrack and only kill anyone in the direct path of the projectile.
Interesting - better in what way?
That, plus there is a lot of hot metal flying around when the shot penetrates. No, I don't think the 17pdr AP has filling.
1404 hrs, Turn 73-74. My little offensive on Hill 36 breaks apart within a minute. The Crusader AA area fires into the woods, hitting 3 men. The other two tanks on the hill crest - a Cromwell and a Firefly - open their hatches. As a result, an infantry team that so far has escaped detection, opens fire at the commanders. They hit nobody and are wiped out in response. The shock from casualties and the fire from the British tanks causes everyone to panic to one corner of the hill, where they make one congregation of panicked troops. They are driven out of there by MG are fire of the M5A1 halftrack on Hill 33. A few bullets also hit my halftrack on the hill, which goes to panic as well. I lose all control of the situation.
My opponent also saves the immobilized Cromwell as my surviving infantry runs away after their close encounter with British troops in the smoke (this is also the only contribution of British infantry to the victory on the wooded hill - tanks did all the work). To add insult to injury, as soon as the smoke screen dissipated, the buttoned up, immobilized Cromwell hidden in the woods catches a glimpse of a retreating halftrack of the 7th Company at around 400 meters - the one that I barely saved from the massacre a few turns earlier. It only has a few seconds to react, but it is again a hit and a kill. 8 casualties. The halftrack was meters from safety. I can't help it - luck has been so disproportionately allocated in this game.
A similar scenario plays out in the Orchard on a smaller scale. One casualty causes one team to panic for a few seconds. They choose to run and hide in a crater where my second team is. Therefore, all 7 men end up in one crater. MG fire comes in from a halftrack, later joined by a Crusader AA (a second one), and everybody is in panic mode. I lose control here, too.
Overall 32 casualties in just 4 minutes, and little to show for it! This is what defeat looks like - but if my opponent wants a total victory in this game, he will still have to earn it
My opponent also saves the immobilized Cromwell as my surviving infantry runs away after their close encounter with British troops in the smoke (this is also the only contribution of British infantry to the victory on the wooded hill - tanks did all the work). To add insult to injury, as soon as the smoke screen dissipated, the buttoned up, immobilized Cromwell hidden in the woods catches a glimpse of a retreating halftrack of the 7th Company at around 400 meters - the one that I barely saved from the massacre a few turns earlier. It only has a few seconds to react, but it is again a hit and a kill. 8 casualties. The halftrack was meters from safety. I can't help it - luck has been so disproportionately allocated in this game.
A similar scenario plays out in the Orchard on a smaller scale. One casualty causes one team to panic for a few seconds. They choose to run and hide in a crater where my second team is. Therefore, all 7 men end up in one crater. MG fire comes in from a halftrack, later joined by a Crusader AA (a second one), and everybody is in panic mode. I lose control here, too.
Overall 32 casualties in just 4 minutes, and little to show for it! This is what defeat looks like - but if my opponent wants a total victory in this game, he will still have to earn it
Not sure actually. But my go-to site says the QF 75mm has a chance to penetrate a StuG out to beyond 1500m, while the 75mm/40 on the Sherman only has a chance to 600m. Assuming the Sherman fires regular AP. With APCBC, performance increases, but not quite to the level of the QF 75.
I think Shermans in Normandy fire regular AP, and APCBC in CMFB.
Yes but I think with the thin armour of a halftrack there wouldn't be much spalling - mostly just a nice round hole. The metal from that hole (roughly 76mm disc) would of course be thrown into the vehicle, but mostly along the line of the penetrating shell. It would hit the guys sitting along that line, but they'd get hit by the shell anyway. I don't see how it could kill ten men.
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