Three Towns (Stafford vs Drifter Man DAR)

Artilley is massively undermodelled against armour in CM. There was a huge thread on the forums about it where some guy went to extreme lengths to prove it, including modelling impacts and fragments of various sizes against various vehicles using what I believe is quite advanced engineering software. His point was that at close (but surprisingly long) range, HE fragments travel so fast that they will go straight through quite a lot of armour. Including the sides and rears of many tanks.

In game, you need a direct hit. But in that case, you can take out prettyh much any tank with 150mm. I've seen Tiger IIs taken out that way at least.
I can believe that. Not that I believe engineering simulations (I've done too many for that) but I believe that an explosion of a large HE shell or bomb right next to a tank should take it out.
But this is CM, so the rule is that you need a direct hit.
 
I've made a different observation. The last spotting round before the fire for effect call falls close to target. It may be the second or even first round, if you are lucky, then the mission starts much earlier than predicted. It may be the fifth or sixth if you are less lucky.
But sometimes, like in this case, all spotting round fall far off and the spotter eventually calls fire for effect anyway. I have never tried what happens then, because I've read *somewhere* on the Battlefront forum the mission will be off target. So I cancel the mission before the ammo is wasted and try again.
I second this observation; the last one is close or after a while it just starts falling wherever. It warrants a proper test though I think, try and spot somewhere the spotter can (no longer) see and verify the latter part of the statement, try a gazillion fire missions to verify the first bit. :)
 
Not that I believe engineering simulations (I've done too many for that)

He refers other sources too.

Here's the thread, if you're interested.

 
I have never tried what happens then, because I've read *somewhere* on the Battlefront forum the mission will be off target. So I cancel the mission before the ammo is wasted and try again.


Adjust fire before a call off for a look see?
 
I second this observation; the last one is close or after a while it just starts falling wherever. It warrants a proper test though I think, try and spot somewhere the spotter can (no longer) see and verify the latter part of the statement, try a gazillion fire missions to verify the first bit. :)
I'm afraid my CM testing capacity is all filled up right now :)

Adjust fire before a call off for a look see?
I tried that once but if the mission is off, the adjusted mission will be also off.
On the other hand, if the mission is on target, after adjustment it will also be on target. I use it with the big guns now. I aim them first where I can see well, then adjust to places I can see just barely.
 
1350 hrs, Turns 57-60. Not much happened in these turns. My probes at the center and on Hill 33 were thrown back as expected. At the center, two teams of the 5th Company were driven back by concentrated fire of a few Bren guns - the Brits are "crossing the T" here, able to deploy several units shooting at the one place I have to pass through. I cannot deploy symmetrically to match their firepower - snipers on one side, tanks on the other. No casualties were taken though. On Hill 33 a team from 6th Company advanced a few meters and was hit by fierce 3in mortar fire from Hill 36. This was my goal - I want this mortar to spend all ammo, otherwise I can't do anything here. I took three casualties though, more than I would like.

My opponent is shelling rear areas south of Wynton, hoping to catch some HQ or reserve units there, but the area is "sparsely populated" and no casualties have been taken here.

A few 150mm shells were dropped on Louvoy and I think I hit the AT gun spotted there, but I cannot say if it has been taken out.

And of course, the StuG watching Hill 33 cannot see the Firefly. Two infantry teams on the ground level, one in front of and another behind the StuG, can see it, but not the StuG. Looks like another CM spotting anomaly.

Situation update, 1350 hrs, 1 hour in. Not much of an update - nothing dramatic has changed over the 20 minutes, and I do not think anything will change in this battle. Having destroyed or disabled nearly half of my armor primarily by air attacks, and occupied the majority of objectives and good defensive terrain, Stafford has no need to to take risks, his victory is practically guaranteed. I could not inflict the same damage on him as he did on me: his tanks either survived the hits and/or made themselves invisible. However, I intend to pressure him and shell him with artillery for the next 90 minutes, trying to cause maximum casualties and waiting for my opponent to make a mistake - striving for the best result I still can get out of this battle.

The main change from the previous update is that one platoon from the 6th Company has reached Hill 36 and engaged some defenders hiding in the trees. Or more precisely, they are getting shot at by invisible infantry in the trees. My plan is to remain on the western side of the hill and advance northwards to help 5th Company clear the access to Louvoy. I also want to destroy the immobilized Cromwell on the hill.

We both have vast infantry reserves - only a small part of our infantry is in the fight. Even if I make some progress or destroy part of Stafford's forces, he still has maybe 5 intact companies - my guess is that an entire British battalion has not yet left the setup zone.

Stafford has taken 46 confirmed casualties. One Firefly, one Stuart V and five Humber LRC armored cars have been destroyed. One Firefly and two Cromwells have been damaged. The approximate purchase point value of the casualties is 667 points. 147 3in and 32 2in mortar bombs have been expended (estimated total supply is 432 3in and 288 2in).

I have taken 93 casualties. Two StuG III, two SPW 251/1 halftracks and two SPW 251/2 mortar halftracks have been destroyed. One StuG III and two SPW 251/1 halftracks have been immobilized. Another StuG has lost 2 crew and is unable to reload the gun. The purchase value of the casualties is 1186 points. My artillery ammo expenditure is as follows:
81mm: 413/1080 (includes 132 HE lost with the mortar halftracks)
120mm: 60/60 - empty
150mm: 67/108

View attachment Turn060_overhead.jpg

[no idea why the images no longer show in posts :(]
 
And of course, the StuG watching Hill 33 cannot see the Firefly. Two infantry teams on the ground level, one in front of and another behind the StuG, can see it, but not the StuG. Looks like another CM spotting anomaly.
How does the LOF look like? You have a full blue target line?
 
How does the LOF look like? You have a full blue target line?
Man, if you have a full blue line on an enemy tank, you are dead :)
Of course I only have reverse slope/no aim point on the location of the tank. Everybody on both sides is as hull down as they can get.
 
Man, if you have a full blue line on an enemy tank, you are dead
Well, "it depends".

Of course I only have reverse slope/no aim point on the location of the tank. Everybody on both sides is as hull down as they can get.
In that case, marginal LOS at long range, it's probably just a matter of waiting more time for either tank to spot the other. How many minutes have you been spotting by now?
 
True, it depends - your tank can be hull down and have full blue line on a facing slope - but your opponent will not want to put his tank on that position.
About 5 minutes now.
The infantry cannot even see the ground (no line of sight) - just the tank. The StuG should be able to see it too, because the commander sits higher than the infantry...
I will wait and see. I have no need for now to move the StuG anywhere else.
 
True, it depends - your tank can be hull down and have full blue line on a facing slope - but your opponent will not want to put his tank on that position.
No, but sometimes if you stalk an enemy tank, you can move into a position that exposes the enemy. I thought that might be what you were doing. From the overhead maps it's a bit difficult to see exactly how the lay of the land is.

If you move the camera to the Firefly's position and look back at your StuG, zooming in, what does it look like?
 
The Firefly is on a hilltop, which means I am looking at it from below. But the map author put a recess on almost every hilltop to make them more defensible, so there are hull-down positions everywhere. Except on my side of the map. I am in a valley and have to rely on low stone walls for some protection.

I got an idea after your note and checked the LOS in detail. I concluded that the StuG is slightly off the line to the Firefly that the mortar unit has - the StuG commander is in the line but the center of the vehicle is off to the right. And if LOS is taken from the center of the vehicle and not from commander's eyes (who knows how it's done in CM...) then the vehicle might not be able to see the target because some trees and bushes are in the way. So I ordered a small adjustment to be exactly in the line with the mortar unit. I hope this does not become the last move of the StuG ever.

Note - after taking the picture I removed the yellow part of the order, which only served to align the direction with the mortar unit.

View attachment Turn060b.jpg

Firefly's eye of view. Not much to see here. The other tank to the right is destroyed. The red line is a target order from the mortar (for this picture only - I am not shooting).

View attachment Turn060c.jpg
 
The LOF seems to pass through several bushes and also to skim just above ground level, which means any weeds and grass in the way will affect the outcome. I'm not surprised they didn't spot each other yet.

But in CM, it's often impossible to know whether they will never spot anything, or whether they just need a lot of time.
 
The LOF seems to pass through several bushes and also to skim just above ground level, which means any weeds and grass in the way will affect the outcome. I'm not surprised they didn't spot each other yet.

But in CM, it's often impossible to know whether they will never spot anything, or whether they just need a lot of time.
It's all just magic :) Let's see what happens with the StuG in the new position.
 
You forgot to count his air support. I believe that is mostly gone too. Right?
 
My plan is to remain on the western side of the hill and advance northwards to help 5th Company clear the access to Louvoy. I also want to destroy the immobilized Cromwell on the hill.

We both have vast infantry reserves - only a small part of our infantry is in the fight. Even if I make some progress or destroy part of Stafford's forces, he still has maybe 5 intact companies - my guess is that an entire British battalion has not yet left the setup zone.
90 minutes left!! I take it Louvoy is key to a win for you? Controlling Hill 28 could win you Louvoy? What about burying Hill 36 north face in smoke?
 
You forgot to count his air support. I believe that is mostly gone too. Right?
Can't say for sure - but the last air activity was 20 minutes ago. So it is reasonable to think that the air support has all been spent.

90 minutes left!! I take it Louvoy is key to a win for you? Controlling Hill 28 could win you Louvoy? What about burying Hill 36 north face in smoke?
I think that causing more casualties without taking more casualties is a key to draw for me. I don't expect Stafford will let me have Louvoy.
I have smoke ready for Hill 36 but the time has not come yet. Smoke works both ways - I don't want to block lines of sight for my mortar fire. I am still depending on it.
 
1351 hrs, Turn 61. The second hour of the battle begins with some bad news. I finally get a line of sight between the StuG and the Firefly. But I am not the one using it. As soon as the StuG moves, the buttoned up Firefly sees it and spits out a big bad 17-pounder shot at 1200 meters.

View attachment Turn061b.jpg

View attachment Turn061a.jpg

But I am spared. The shot falls short and the Firefly then loses contact. My unbuttoned StuG sees nothing. Surprised? I am not.

Now we both have a fresh contact and the Firefly is one shot ahead in taking range. I can't afford losing another StuG on a gamble, while Stafford can afford losing his tank. Therefore, I am no longer interested in this exchange and am calling off Operation Kurzschuss. However, operation Langschuss II is underway.

On Hill 36 my fresh platoon takes its first casualty, a squad leader - and it is again one of the snipers, this time firing from 40 meters. I will not go back to recount how much HE of various calibers I have dropped on this guy and the other two snipers on the hill. This one lost his buddy but the marksman is unharmed and continues his killing spree. Nothing can help against these immortal snipers shooting from a sea of craters. No matter what I fire at them, they survive, retreat and appear somewhere else. They see everything, yet they are hard to spot even at short ranges. What do you guys do about enemy snipers?
 
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