Three Towns (Stafford vs Drifter Man DAR)

[Drifter Man]

Hmm.. I think the MG planes are pretty good at taking out infantry and halftracks though. I don't think of them as suppression weapons.

About the battle at hand, yes it does look a bit bleak now. But all is not lost. You still have 5 StuGs left, if I'm not mistaken?

No it's not lost - and your numbers are right, 5 StuGs in working order, one immobilized, one that will soon die. Plus 1 Marder and two battalions of infantry. If Stafford wants Wynton, I intend to make him pay for it.
But I am completely on the defensive - which is no longer a surprise to me considering that I brought StuGs into a meeting engagement where I would need to maneuver. It was a bad idea for a number of reasons. I took all initiative out of my hands on Turn 1 and handed it over to Stafford, who has put it to use with all his skill.

 

[Bulletpoint]

I agree Stafford seems to play well, so I don't want to discredit his skill, but I think the reason you lost initiative was mainly because of the unexpected first turn air attacks.

Wondering if you could have pressed on despite getting strafed? If you had rushed on with a large number of units, maybe the planes would have strafed mainly infantry and you would have been able to absorb those losses and get into position.

However, that's for the debriefing. You still have iron crosses to win, by putting up a fierce but ultimately hopeless (?) resistance, in the good old fashioned German tradition.

 

[Drifter Man]

I agree Stafford seems to play well, so I don't want to discredit his skill, but I think the reason you lost initiative was mainly because of the unexpected first turn air attacks.

Wondering if you could have pressed on despite getting strafed? If you had rushed on with a large number of units, maybe the planes would have strafed mainly infantry and you would have been able to absorb those losses and get into position.

However, that's for the debriefing. You still have iron crosses to win, by putting up a fierce but ultimately hopeless (?) resistance, in the good old fashioned German tradition.

He does play well. He seems to know what works well with his British force, avoids casualties and in various small engagements/situations I am not reporting here, I can see he is one or two steps ahead of me in thinking. When he has options, he seems to be choosing one that is less predictable. When he gives options to me, he makes sure I am choosing between bad and worse. Right now the game looks like this: he is shooting - I am trying to evade. So yes - I'd say he has been playing CM for a while

I think you are right that I should have pressed on regardless of the air attacks and accept possible casualties - I should have aimed to capture Hill 36 to prevent him from using it. I had (still have) enough halftracks to get there while securing the northern and southern flanks at the same time. The main damage from aircraft is obviously the StuGs, and this would have happened anyway. By the way, he still has at least two strafing runs left in this 4th plane, and he will repeat the trick to take out one or two more armor pieces. I have no defense against it... I can't hide my StuGs under trees because I need them in the fight.

I also think you are right that the fight is not over - and I haven't given up winning! Unless Stafford chooses to sit and defend, in that case we'd be headed for a boring exchange of artillery and eventually ceasefire. I grew up on a CM ladder where the victory "quality" mattered - it was very different if you won 60:40 or 90:10. This meant that everyone fought as hard as they could to get the best possible score they could, whether winning or losing. What I see around here is that once one player concludes he cannot win, he surrenders and the battle is over. Because for the ladder it is all the same.

 

[Drifter Man]

1317 hrs, Turns 25-27. Three turns passed without dramatic new development. Stafford's tanks used their time unopposed on Hill 36, taking out a mortar halftrack (I did not know they could see it - the target tool can only be used to check LOS for armed units, which makes it difficult to hide unarmed vehicles) and a two men from my supporting units on the left flank while I was withdrawing them. He also took out the crippled StuG when I was trying to get it to Hill 33 for some cover - another one-shot kill for a Firefly. The tanks then popped a smoke screen on the Hill and withdrew to the other side. 1/6 in the woods of Hill 33 has been engaged with the British scout section delivered there with a halftrack a few turns earlier. So far I have had the upper hand, hitting 4 men and taking no casualties, but now one detachment managed to spot a panzergrenadier team and pin them down with automatic fire without getting spotted back. I don't know how Stafford does this, I think he just sneaks the troops through the woods, which is why he is taking so long to attack.

In the center I've been shelling enemy positions while getting shelled back with 3in mortars. British mortars have not been very effective in producing casualties, but they do stop me from trying to move forward - or backward. And finally, nothing new in the north. The StuG managed to fire one shell at the loaded truck, but missed, and did not get the chance to fire a second one.

I have moved additional reserves to Wynton to make sure it is hard to take - there are so many buildings that I think that even if Stafford's tanks operated unopposed, we would have hard time taking this town away from me. However, I am worried that he could now hit the town with some heavy artillery - although I think he may not have had enough points for buying it. My own 150mm guns are shelling Hill 36 and Louvoy, while 120mm mortars drop an occasional bomb on the approaches from Louvoy. I want to regroup my StuGs and concentrate them into a single formation like my opponent did with his tanks. Strength in numbers.

 

[Blady]

Nice. I'm quite sure you'll be able to persevere. Judging by his use of the airplanes, popping out all the tanks for a few shots and then retreating, I think he's just trying to mess with you, and cause attrition. You're playing Germany, so even when loosing all your own armour, your infantry is a force to be reckoned with, panzerfausts, shrecks, etc. Also each squad has an LMG for anti-infantry. If it comes down to defending Wynton, I'm quite sure it'll be a tough nut to crack for him, and maybe, maybe even likely, he has to leave a gap in his lines while doing so...

And we all know how Germans love to slip through gaps!

 

[Drifter Man]

Nice. I'm quite sure you'll be able to persevere. Judging by his use of the airplanes, popping out all the tanks for a few shots and then retreating, I think he's just trying to mess with you, and cause attrition. You're playing Germany, so even when loosing all your own armour, your infantry is a force to be reckoned with, panzerfausts, shrecks, etc. Also each squad has an LMG for anti-infantry. If it comes down to defending Wynton, I'm quite sure it'll be a tough nut to crack for him, and maybe, maybe even likely, he has to leave a gap in his lines while doing so...

And we all know how Germans love to slip through gaps!

Yeah hard to see how this plays out... he seems to be very careful and at the same time difficult to predict.

 

[Drifter Man]

1318 hrs, Turn 28. This is an interesting turn. The main news is that a substantial force of British tanks - 2 Fireflies and 2 Cromwells - is moving around Hill 36 to the north. Keeping in mind my poor track record in guessing Stafford's intentions, I take notice that he is moving the Fireflies in reverse - he does not want to wait the 40-odd seconds it takes to turn them around. This tells me that he probably isn't going very far. Not a major maneuver - he will probably pop up on the northern end of the hill to attack 5th Company, or the supporting mortars that have been helping my troops, or to try and bag another StuG there (least likely for the moment, as Stafford has been avoiding duels on equal terms).

Behind the smoke screen laid by the tanks, a few tentative infantry contacts are appearing, moving in. I hope they stay for a while. 150mm artillery is adjusting fire, 2 minutes away.



On Hill 33, 1/6 continues to fight well (mainly the team of Obergefreiter Laurberg, which has been on the line all the time). Both sides use support fire - a Cromwell chips in from Hill 33, while I am firing an assault howitzer at long range. The low velocity of the 105mm shell and the long range is helpful because the shell passes over the trees that stand in the way. The 81mm mortar that has been assisting 1/6 also joins in again, but I will have to relocate it next turn because it is exposed and the tanks may be coming for him. The British scout section loses another man and another detachment is breaking.



I am considering sending 1/6 in pursuit. There still are 5 British soldiers - hopefully shell-shocked right now - and a 2in mortar team I'd like to take out. But the flanking fire from the Cromwell makes it dangerous.

In the center it is the situation in reverse: my the point team from 2/5 gets under fire of the same British troops that gave me hell at the start of the battle, losing two men. Together with the low-intensity mortar fire falling on the heads of 1/5 and 2/5, the defenders make it impossible for me to advance. However, I do note that the British lines have thinned down here, and the resistance is a lot less determined than earlier. A Cromwell is confirmed covering the northern flank of this British position. This one was reported as a tentative contact already in Turn 7. It completes the tank force in this area - two troops (3x Cromwell, 1x Firefly each).

A sniper is again active in the southern part of Hill 36.

 

[KGBoy]

Enjoying this AAR @Drifter Man and reading it up and down. Very generous.I appreciated the groups observations. Most instructive. Thanks all. I am KGBoy. I am either shy or cagey -- not sure which...

@Drifter Man Is this being played on IRON?

Stafford's tactics are most revealing about approaching ME's. Clearly Hill 36 was his goal. The 1-2 punch was the aircraft and the Humber III et al to hold you up. I really felt your disappointment about the aircraft and the rationalizing it entailed -- interesting.

As to the plausibility of random aircraft just 'appearing' I would have to say (were I an arbitrator) this was preplanned and the proof was the Humber III's rumbling death wish. One came with a two -- a left and a right. The result was a perfect denial of Hill 36 for the Germans. Very clever. Stafford knows a thing or 2!

I hope this is not out of line. But I feel this is about gameplay rules and so open for discussion.

 

[Drifter Man]

Enjoying this AAR @Drifter Man and reading it up and down. Very generous.I appreciated the groups observations. Most instructive. Thanks all. I am KGBoy. I am either shy or cagey -- not sure which...

@Drifter Man Is this being played on IRON?

Stafford's tactics are most revealing about approaching ME's. Clearly Hill 36 was his goal. The 1-2 punch was the aircraft and the Humber III et al to hold you up. I really felt your disappointment about the aircraft and the rationalizing it entailed -- interesting.

As to the plausibility of random aircraft just 'appearing' I would have to say (were I an arbitrator) this was preplanned and the proof was the Humber III's rumbling death wish. One came with a two -- a left and a right. The result was a perfect denial of Hill 36 for the Germans. Very clever. Stafford knows a thing or 2!

I hope this is not out of line. But I feel this is about gameplay rules and so open for discussion.

And I thought you were "Kampfgruppe Boy". Welcome here.

It is played on Elite. I suggested to Stafford before the game that we select Elite because Iron is basically just an UI obstacle that can prevent you from readily seeing some of your own units. In a battle this big this could become a pain. As it turned out, Stafford is not a fan of Iron either.
He did deny Hill 36 to me, but even worse - I had not even wanted Hill 36 until I realized that it is important to him - and that was too late. This was a mistake, but an even greater mistake was putting the StuGs in full view and keeping them there for so long. In the absence of other decent hull down positions on this flank, I should have either taken Hill 36 (the South Ridge would have given me hull down positions) - or left the flank open and defend it further to the rear.
About the preplanned airstrikes, yes I think it was a bit cheap, basically like dropping artillery right outside (in fact inside) the setup zone in the opening turns of the battle. Just different means of delivery. Of course I had to be there and of course the planes had plenty of targets. But in the end these strikes did not cost me too much - apart from the immobilized StuG.

On the other hand, this latest air-armor cooperation was a brilliant move on Stafford's part. After the air attack, I had two options for the remaining two StuGs: 1) stay and fight and risk having them both disabled by the plane, after which they would be easily taken out by the tanks, 2) disperse and hope to save at least one. I realized that Stafford has the option to attack with his tanks while I am trying to get them to cover, which would make them unable to shoot back. But fighting while under attack from the air did not seem to give me much hope to hit anything anyway, so I chose to disperse.
In the end, the plane did not come back, which I didn't even consider possible. Stafford's tanks nailed one StuG with ease and I was fortunate to get the other one out. In retrospect, the better decision would have been to stay and fight - both StuGs would probably have ended up destroyed in a 2-on-4 to 2-on-6 fight but at least there would have been a fight.

And back to the Humbers... it was really only one of them, in the center, that slowed me down, although I am unsure now whether it really changed anything. I am still wondering whether the suicide action of the first Humber, which laid a smoke screen blinding my StuG covering this approach, was intentional (with a pop smoke command given in the perfect place), or if it was just a fluke that the Humber crew spotted the threat right there and chose to drop smoke on their own.

Stafford's busy at work and so am I, so we slowed down, but I'll do my best to keep this thread updated!

 

[Drifter Man]

As one small update, we now stand at 70 casualties on my side and 30 confirmed on Stafford's, with 4 more 'probables' and hopefully many more I have never seen. But the value of my casualties is over 1000 points as I lost some key units - and that's not counting immobilized vehicles. Stafford's is close to 400.

 

[Drifter Man]

1319 hrs, Turn 29. In the south on Hill 33, the British scouts retreat and I am sending a panzergrenadier team after them. The supporting Cromwell from Hill 36 continues to pour HE into the woods but it has trouble hitting my position on the hill through the trees - no casualties are taken. So far, 1/6 lost one man here: the radio operator, who was hit by a stray bullet from a Bren and now is getting buddy aid from his comrades in the Platoon HQ, so I should recover the radio. Two other men from the platoon were lost to a sniper when scouting towards Hill 36.

In the center, enemy 3in mortar fire ceases - Stafford figured out he had been wasting ammo. The mortars fired 88 rounds, most of which fell into the open fields, so only two casualties were taken. One of them was a Panzerschreck though. I recovered the tube but the infantry team (selected in the image below) did not pick up any rockets except the one that was loaded, so they'll be a single-shot antitank team. I should use them as "schreck in being" to keep my opponent away - he should have no way of knowing much ammo they've got.

The point team from 2/5 retreats a few tiles further because I expect them to get hit with 2in mortar. And I am right - they escape just in time to avoid the attack.



Finally, in the north, the truck is seen arriving at the enemy position after taking a long detour to avoid the threat from the StuG. This puts the enemy strength in this area at one Rifle Company minus the sniper, who was seen leaving with an Universal Carrier to do mischief somewhere else. I'll call this position "Orchard". I have already ordered an 81mm mortar strike here, directed from the North Ridge, but there could be an opportunity to do much more damage with 150mm. There is one building in Wynton from which I can see bits of the Orchard - a bit too obvious position for an FO so I did not put one there. But now I will, and I will run an experiment at the same time. The FO is nearby, already directing 150mm fire on Louvoy, and the mission is in the process of adjusting - 2 minutes to delivery. I will rush them over to the other building and see if I can adjust from there to the Orchard. The worst case should be that I lose this fire mission and will have to call it again (~9 minutes). Well, no - the worst case is that Stafford will pepper the building with 20mm from the Crusader AA tank he has got in Louvoy.

 

[KGBoy]

Shades of the Battle of Cannae!

 

[Drifter Man]

1321 hrs, Turns 30-31. Another two passive turns on my part - while Stafford is looking for ways to hurt me, I am looking for ways not to get hurt. I can't find any way to attack - everything smells of disaster. So I wait and move artillery around.

On Hill 33 a team from 1/6 Hunts through the woods with the usual result: get under SMG fire at close range, continue walking until a casualty is taken - then get pinned and unable to shoot back. I am fortunate to extract the other 3 men from immediate danger. The enemy consists now of a light mortar team (firing SMG) and a scout detachment (reduced to rifle + SMG). There should be 2-3 more Brits around. I catch a glimpse of the two Firefly tanks moving from Hill 36 southeast towards Hill 33 and position four StuGs to cover that hill (dashed white lines below) - this leaves only one StuG, backed up by a Marder, covering the northern flank. I expect Stafford will repeat his plane trick. This time I will not scramble for cover, instead I'll sprinkle empty halftracks around my StuGs, hoping that they will draw some air attacks.



In the center, I spot a Crusader AA moving in just in time for me to evacuate an infantry team before it starts area firing the woods. I still lose two men - I underestimated the blast radius of 20mm HE.

In the north I play a similar cat-and-mouse game with a light mortar team. The FO team changed position to the new building and the fire mission they are directing on Louvoy has "survived" - now shelling an area the FO cannot see. I should now be able to adjust fire to the Orchard.

Surprise sighting by scouts from North Ridge: a 6pdr AT gun in tow behind a halftrack. 8 men inside - 2-man halftrack crew, 4-man gun crew, 2 ammo bearers. It is sort of good news-bad news. Good news - ATGs aren't cheap and I don't think Stafford will have many opportunities to use them, although having them could be a good idea if I was winning (I should have thought of ATGs myself - probably more useful than infantry now - although I can't think of any great positions for them on my side). Bad news - by deploying ATGs, Stafford is telling me he is claiming zis map for ze Britisch Empire.

 

[Bulletpoint]

With the amount of mortars you brought along, the AT guns should be the least of your worries. Hopefully you will be able to take out a few of those nasty Fireflies at Hill 33.

What's the range from the StuGs? I still remember seeing my Pak40 shots bounce off Shermans in our last game.

 

[KGBoy]

So, with all this equipment Stafford purchased how much manpower was left for him to buy do you figure? Any chance to slip around the north ridge?

I remember in one scenario my 6pdr bounced 6-8 shots off one Stug and never did take it out. Just immobilized it into bailing.
Those were clear shots at 1/2 klick or so.

 

[Drifter Man]

With the amount of mortars you brought along, the AT guns should be the least of your worries. Hopefully you will be able to take out a few of those nasty Fireflies at Hill 33.

What's the range from the StuGs? I still remember seeing my Pak40 shots bounce off Shermans in our last game.

They are the least of my worries. It's a sign of confidence though - look how much useless (?) stuff I can waste my points on and still be winning
The range is 1200 meters. Any front upper hull hits on the Shermans will be ineffective, but the turret is still vulnerable.

So, with all this equipment Stafford purchased how much manpower was left for him to buy do you figure? Any chance to slip around the north ridge?

I remember in one scenario my 6pdr bounced 6-8 shots off one Stug and never did take it out. Just immobilized it into bailing.
Those were clear shots at 1/2 klick or so.

I think two infantry battalions with most of the trimmings. One important question is about is how he used his armor points. So far I have seen or assumed 2350 points' worth of armor. Did he spend the remaining 650 points on more armor he has kept in reserve, or something else?
North Ridge is an option - it is the only place where I have decent intel about what I am up against. But even if I succeed there, I'll end up in a valley from which there isn't much I can do. First I need to get the armor situation under some degree of control. StuGs can't operate with Cromwells and Fireflies in their flank.

 

[Drifter Man]

1322 hrs, Turn 32. The Fireflies show up on Hill 33, driving fast towards and into the woods. Two StuGs see them but the window of opportunity is too short. Only one get a shot out and misses.

What is he up to here? By the way he is driving on the edge of the map, he wants to use the trees for cover. A mortar on Hill 36 is getting range on 1/6. Does he want to suppress my troops and push through with tanks? Doubtful, he has little infantry here and he would be using Cromwells or Stuarts for that, not Fireflies. I should prepare for this eventuality, but it is more likely that he will park his Fireflies in the woods, protected by his remaining infantry there, and take advantage of the cover provided by the trees when duelling my StuGs.



In the center Stafford continues to hit my positions with fire from tanks (Crusader AA and a Cromwell) and a light mortar. He achieves two lightly wounded. My single-shot schreck team seems to have had some effect, judging how quickly he withdrew the Cromwell while hitting the position with everything he had got in the area - the infantry unit shows with the panzerschreck in the tab, so he can readily see it as an antitank team. The withdrawing tank is nearly hit with a 120mm mortar round. A direct hit might immobilize it... I can dream. It is worth noting that all this time I have no solid contacts on any enemy unit in this area. The story I am telling is based on listening to the sounds and watching tentative contact icons move around. It looks like this:



In the north an enemy scout team that had been waiting in the crop field for a few minutes is on the move again towards the ridge. I hope Stafford will spend a few more minutes scouting while I am adjusting 150mm guns on the Orchard. A single shell of this calibre can cause tremendous damage if it falls in the right place... I even called off a mortar strike on the Orchard to avoid giving him a warning...

EDIT: I listened carefully to the single sound the mortar on Hill 36 made so far when it fired a round on Hill 33. I found its position, then opened the map in scenario editor and checked what it can see. It can see anywhere on Hill 33 - 1/6 cannot hide from it. Anywhere. At the same time, the mortar cannot be seen from anywhere else - this is the sign of some CM mastery when you keep coming up with these positions like Stafford does (although this one wasn't particularly hard to find). It's just the key skill in CM - make sure you can see and shoot while the enemy can't effectively see or shoot back. It's the same with the Fireflies, or with the tanks at the center - they are shooting up my infantry but I can't even see them.

In short, this is the end of my (partial) control of Hill 33. 1/6 can either retreat or die.

 

[Drifter Man]

OK, turn sent... the next one could be exciting. Or maybe not, depending on what Stafford does.

I concluded that he will use his mortar fire and infantry to protect the Fireflies' flank while he deploys them in a hull-down position in the woods on Hill 33. One mortar is already zeroed in - I ordered it to fire on British infantry on the hill and the first round is just about to fall. Another one will join in together with a StuH 42 (selected below) and together they will hopefully force the tank commanders to button up. Three StuGs (numbers 2, 3 and 4) have view on that position, although for Nos 3 and 4 it is a bit sketchy. No. 1 sees some other parts of the hill but I can't move it anywhere from where it could join the other two. No. 2 is in a slightly precarious position because it could get attacked from two sides - it is covering the center at the same time, so for now I will order infantry to deploy some smoke to cover the line of fire from the center. Finally, 1/6 is falling back but in a way to hit the Fireflies if Stafford does something crazy and tries to break through this platoon.

 

[Drifter Man]

1323 hrs, Turn 33. The two enemy tanks stop in a dip in the terrain by the edge of the map, short of where I expected them to stop, and out of sight. Waiting for air support? The last air attack was in Turn 23, I estimate that the next one should not arrive before Turn 35. The mortar and the assault howitzer hit the hilltop with intense bombardment - the British infantry in the woods is certainly having a bad day, but the tanks are parked too far away from the target zone to be affected. I'll move the fire of the howitzer and mortar towards the tanks for the next turn, and advance with an infantry team from 1/6 towards the tanks, hoping to force them out. The British 3in mortar continues to fire on Hill 33 in "target light" mode but seems to have missed the map in this turn twice as I don't see any 3in impacts. My own mortars are having the same problem here, the edge of the map is close and some shots fall too long.

In the center the enemy 2in mortar spends the rest of its HE ammo against my "single-shot" schreck team. One man from the four-man team is hit... guess which one. At least with the Cromwell having retreated out of the woods and the mortar out of ammo, the approach should now be more open for some probing, so 2/5 will move forward again just to keep my opponent busy. Meanwhile, 150mm artillery levels a light building in Louvoy where a British Platoon HQ has been hiding. From there they would potentially be able to direct artillery on Wynton... but not anymore.



In the north, two enemy scouts moving from the Orchard towards North Ridge reach the end of the crop field that provided them some concealment. There they stop, go to ground and continue by sneaking. I don't want to open fire too early here.

The halftrack with the AT gun has not reappeared since I spotted it briefly 2 minutes ago. This makes sense, Stafford knows I have observation posts along the North Ridge, he would not want me to see where the gun is placed. It is probably already deploying somewhere east of Louvoy.

 

[KGBoy]

North Ridge is an option - it is the only place where I have decent intel about what I am up against. But even if I succeed there, I'll end up in a valley from which there isn't much I can do.

I remember in CM1 on ME's there would be flags to capture. It is hard to find motivation without them. The terrain is really of no importance and the killing of the opponent is the only thing that counts. Or that is how it seems to me.