Three Towns (Stafford vs Drifter Man DAR)

[Drifter Man]

I remember in CM1 on ME's there would be flags to capture. It is hard to find motivation without them. The terrain is really of no importance and the killing of the opponent is the only thing that counts. Or that is how it seems to me.

Yes... painting those flags with your color added to the motivation. I am aware of the points value in Louvoy, but that's all it is - and I am weighing that against the chances I have to take it and the losses I would take in the process. If there was just a little flag, it would be easier
No, the more I think about it, taking the valley with the Orchard would be of little value. To move forward I'd need to go through the center. But Stafford is probably using the Orchard as a staging area - so it is an opportunity to hit him and also a place to watch.

 

[Drifter Man]

1324 hrs, Turn 34. The two Fireflies approach the hilltop but this time the setup is in my favor. The StuGs are sitting and waiting and they even have fresh tentative contacts on the enemy tanks. A 105mm HE from the area-firing assault howitzer explodes near the leading Firefly, forcing the commander to go inside. Seconds later, StuG #4 scores a hit with its first shot at 1000 meters on the turret of the second Firefly, killing the commander. The tank drops smoke and attempts to withdraw, but the second hit causes an internal explosion. Meanwhile, StuG #2 fires at the leading Firefly at 1200 meters and hits the turret with its third shot. Again, the enemy tank drops smoke and withdraws, this time successfully, out of sight.

The other two StuGs fail to sight the enemy tanks. There is no indication that the Fireflies spotted any contacts, either - no return fire.




Not everything goes well. The enemy 3in mortar fire on Hill 33 intensifies and the team from 1/6 I sent forward gets caught right in the middle. Miraculously they don't take any casualties, but unless Stafford changes the target to somewhere else, they'll get cut to ribbons.

A sniper is spotted on Hill 36 and this time I take care to give everybody a cover arc - I don't want to tell Stafford that I have seen him. I want to catch him right there with something accurate and highly explosive. Another sniper opens fire from Louvoy and hits one man near the Louvoy-Wynton road. It may be the same sniper as previously spotted in the Orchard.

Two additional "rogue pixeltruppen" are seen running from Hill 36 towards my position - that's seven soldiers in total that Stafford has lost control of due to glitches while embarking his troops on vehicles.

The priority now is to prevent the other Firefly from escaping. Right now there is a lot of smoke on the hilltop, but I don't think it has anywhere to hide in the long run. My StuGs are ranged in onto the hill and I won't move them or give them other targets for now. I am concerned about the Cromwells - I haven't seen them in a while. Could they attack my left flank when my StuGs are concentrated on the right? And don't forget that the plane will be coming back.

I find an interesting pair of "siamese soldiers" who ended up in the same spot:

 

[Bulletpoint]

Seems like you got the upper hand here, but ideally you'd have two sherman wrecks instead of hitting them and having them withdraw... The range is too long.

 

[Drifter Man]

Seems like you got the upper hand here, but ideally you'd have two sherman wrecks instead of hitting them and having them withdraw... The range is too long.

Yes, I hope I can produce a second wreck in a few minutes... especially at this range the Shermans can take some beating. Then I can breathe more freely.

 

[Drifter Man]

1325 hrs, Turn 35. The surviving enemy tank has withdrawn behind the smoke screen and based on the sound contacts reported by 1/6 Platoon, it is not moving. The enemy mortar is also holding fire - my team survived without a scratch, for now. A plane makes an overhead pass, as predicted. I load an old turn, the situation from 11 minutes ago, and make a guess what it is going to target. It could be the southern part of Wynton with its the concentration of vehicles, in which case I have a few halftracks around to act as decoys. Or it could be targeting specifically StuG #4, which has been visible to my opponent most of the time. I order the StuG to reverse towards a building for partial protection, while an infantry team (5th Company HQ) will drop a smoke grenade to protect its other flank. All this time the StuG should not lose view of Hill 33.

A quiet turn otherwise. Troops now report two snipers on Hill 36 and I will engage one with a 105mm howitzer in the next turn. I would prefer not having to spend this precious ammo on such a small target, but mortars are not accurate or effective enough and StuGs are busy. And with the snipers in the way it is hard to get anywhere.

At North Ridge the two British scouts stop, just barely triggering my cover arc. They receive a single shot and hide in the grass. An ambush cannot go worse than this.

 

[Drifter Man]

1326 hrs, Turn 36. The lull in the fighting continues for another minute. Both sides treat their wounded. The unseen British soldier is declared 38th confirmed enemy casualty. The buddy saving his life is registered as a new contact and receives designation B45, although I may have seen him before - hard to tell.



The lull is not perfectly quiet - not at all. 150mm shells hit Hill 36 and the Orchard. 120mm mortars have been adjusted to hill the more distant Hill 32 north of Halberg in hope of bagging some high value unit. Since I shifted them from the area southwest of Louvoy, my opponent used this break in bombardment to rotate some troops. One unit is seen withdrawing while a fresh light mortar is moving in. I take note of where the mortar team deployed and order an infantry team - its likely target - to relocate.

Snipers (contact Nos B18 and B31) are active on Hill 36 and I now have full contact on both, but still keep my infantry on cover arcs so that Stafford does not catch wind that they may be in danger. Unfortunately, the blue line LOS of the assault howitzer turns into a No Aim Point once it reaches the crest of the hill it is using for cover, so no shots are fired. I'll switch target to the second sniper in the next turn, on whom I have blue LOS now.

The ambush attempt at the North Ridge did not work last turn, but now Stafford orders his unfortunate scouts to make a dash southwards for the woods. In short order both are hit by MG fire from a team from 2/2 at a distance of around 100 meters.

It is still a question of what is up with the other Firefly and what damage the plane is going to cause, but I am starting to plan an offensive. I have partially achieved what I wanted: Stafford tried to take advantage of his earlier victory and attacked again. I was ready and bloodied his nose. He is less likely to attack now - and it is my time to be on the offensive. The direction of the attack should be straight against Hill 36, where I can provide support fire. The first task is to assemble a few spotters to direct 81mm mortars against the hill. The idea is to use many spotters and many mortars on Harass intensity, to conserve ammunition and give me maximum flexibility of where, when and how much HE to deliver. I count 81mm ammo: 831 rounds left, plenty. The first wave should be a platoon from the 6th company who will cross the 900m gap to Hill 36 on foot, following some scouts that are already in the fields. They can be followed by another platoon on foot or on halftracks. Panzerschreck teams - I have 2-3 ready here - need to join in as I want to keep British tanks away from the hill.

 

[Drifter Man]

1327 hrs, Turn 37. Another quiet turn apart from the two more 150 mm and two 120mm shells falling on the map and the constant fire of snipers, who, however, aren't currently hitting anything. The StuH 42 has a full blue line on the spot of the second sniper, but still does not fire. Is there some hardcoded rule that snipers cannot be shot at by 105mmt? I have already lost two minutes here. For the next turn I'll move the vehicle a few inches forward.

As Louvoy is no longer being shelled (not for long though!), my opponent sends a rifle team to the demolished garage - I can see them from Wynton. Their task is probably to retrieve the valuable binoculars and radio from the HQ team buried in the rubble. British infantry does not have many binoculars.

The Firefly is still there on Hill 33, not moving based on sound contact. The smoke screen is gone and two StuGs and the Marder should have partial view on the spot where the Firefly is hiding among the trees. It should be a matter of time... or maybe I am wrong and the target is actually out of sight. Or it has already left. Or, unseen, it is already aiming at one of my StuGs. Yeah, possibilities, possibilities...

The plane attacks in the final seconds of the turn... putting two hundred rounds into an empty place in the woods on my right flank. The only item of note on that particular square are the bodies of two British deserters that Stafford lost control of and who were executed by my forces right there. I speculate that the game defines a certain chance that the aircraft will attack friendly forces if they are within the specified target area, and the two corpses were the closest thing available. I'd be pretty annoyed in Stafford's place - he knows where his casualties are and can probably figure out what happened.

Nevertheless, the attack on this flank is surprising. There are no StuGs. Why did Stafford not call off the attack, saving the ammo for a better opportunity?

 

[KGBoy]

I find an interesting pair of "siamese soldiers" who ended up in the same spot:

The AI does some strange things and I am unsure as to what they imply by the visual representation. Will 1 bullet kill both?

I did some experimenting fighting in heavy forest. The way points tend to spread and you kind wind up with huge swathes of forest between various way points. If you put 6 men in that area they may (or may not) spread out but if you put two 3 man teams from different squads (so that they don't merge into one 6 man team) in that same area they will sit on top of each other. I would guess that the stacking in your case is two different teams?

 

[Drifter Man]

The AI does some strange things and I am unsure as to what they imply by the visual representation. Will 1 bullet kill both?

I did some experimenting fighting in heavy forest. The way points tend to spread and you kind wind up with huge swathes of forest between various way points. If you put 6 men in that area they may (or may not) spread out but if you put two 3 man teams from different squads (so that they don't merge into one 6 man team) in that same area they will sit on top of each other. I would guess that the stacking in your case is two different teams?

Normally the game ensures some separation is space between troops - I suppose it's just a rare case where it failed. I don't think bullets "survive" hitting a soldier to be able to kill another, but single MG burst or single shell of course could kill both. They are from the same team (in fact they are the team).

 

[Drifter Man]

1328 hrs, Turn 38. Another air attack and another disaster I am helpless to prevent - this time it is "StuG #1" that gets hit by the Typhoon. Loses two crew members and optics and is pretty much useless for the rest of the battle, perhaps except area firing. A nearby mortar team is nearly wiped out, too, as collateral damage. That's half of my StuGs out of action directly or indirectly as a result of air attacks, and it gets worse: a fifth plane is heard overhead. I don't care anymore - it's not under my control. If Stafford decided in the purchase screen that he wants to wipe me out from the air without actually having to fight, then that's what he will get. I suppose it is a similar problem I created in the battle against @Bulletpoint: large battle means you have a lot of points and the freedom to allocate them as you please, and the temptation to create an asymmetric advantage for yourself is great. But his choice to bring half of the RAF in here contrasts with his preference for a limit on armed vehicles. Ironically this limit includes flak... not that flak would make any change.



The assault howitzer - to the right in the image above - finally opens fire at one of the snipers, but the target is too well protected by trees. The first shell explodes on a tree about ten meters from the sniper team and has no other effect than that they stand up and retreat into the woods. The next two shells are also blocked by trees of the hill.

Three tanks - probably Cromwells - move into the woods of Hill 36, probably getting ready to finish off the StuGs that survive the upcoming strafing.

 

[Bulletpoint]

I'm happy I'm not the only one seeing some similarities with our last battle. I knew you might pick some TRPs, but not 20 of them. You knew Stafford might bring some aircraft, but not this many.

Spoiler: more BP grumblings

Both TRPs and aircraft are too cheap compared to their effect, I think.

And both have a kind of "multiplier effect" in large battles:

In a large battle, airplanes will have a very target rich environment.

TRPs are a multiplier for artillery because the more artilley you have, the more each individual TRP is worth, and the more TRPs you have, the more each arty module is worth.

I think at the end of the day, the question is: If you had foreseen this much air power, would there have been anything you could have done about it during unit purchase or initial planning?

Hiding under trees and in buildings is not an option when you need to advance to take objectives.

Buying AA units would have been utterly ineffective (in my experience). Spending all your points on Panthers maybe? That seems to be what the game designer wants the German player to do. At least that's the way the pricing structure works out currently.

Then again, your panther optics would be shot and the commanders forced to stay under the hatches. Not a winning combination against Fireflies...

 

[Drifter Man]

I'm happy I'm not the only one seeing some similarities with our last battle. I knew you might pick some TRPs, but not 20 of them. You knew Stafford might bring some aircraft, but not this many.

Spoiler: more BP grumblings

Both TRPs and aircraft are too cheap compared to their effect, I think.

And both have a kind of "multiplier effect" in large battles:

In a large battle, airplanes will have a very target rich environment.

TRPs are a multiplier for artillery because the more artilley you have, the more each individual TRP is worth, and the more TRPs you have, the more each arty module is worth.

I think at the end of the day, the question is: If you had foreseen this much air power, would there have been anything you could have done about it during unit purchase or initial planning?

Hiding under trees and in buildings is not an option when you need to advance to take objectives.

Buying AA units would have been utterly ineffective (in my experience). Spending all your points on Panthers maybe? That seems to be what the game designer wants the German player to do. At least that's the way the pricing structure works out currently.

Then again, your panther optics would be shot and the commanders forced to stay under the hatches. Not a winning combination against Fireflies...

I've observed the similarity for some time, and honestly, it motivates me to keep fighting just as you did in our last battle and give my opponent a good game with whatever I have left - after all, the battle is not over and the fortunes may still turn. And like me back then, I don't think Stafford intended to achieve this effect. He was just experimenting with a large force size and it got out of hand. He can still have five more aircraft, in addition to the five I already know he has/had, with the rarity points he's got.
Re BP grumblings - good observations. All the TRPs can be used by any artillery you have, and you can arrange them in ways that allow you to hit practically any place on the map, so with enough TRP density your artillery becomes omnipotent.

To the end of the day question... probably nothing I could have done. Panthers would remain serviceable but you are right that without optics they would not be any good, especially in the long range fights on this map. And I want to play as the Germans, not having to buy cats and still have a good fight.

But it is a useful experience - I really like this idea of large battles. They just need very specific house rules to make sure both players get the full fun out of them, commensurate with the investment and effort and time these monsters require.

 

[Blady]

To me this is the problem with Quick Battles. I'm in a large Quick Battle myself at the moment where we agreed to a similar ruleset like you have here. I wanted to go with a force of only SU-76s to simulate a typical Russian infantry layout. In the end I decided for T-34/85s out of fear my oppo might bring panthers or tigers. Turns out he brought PzIVs and a few Wespes, and now I'm the one with overpowered armor...

I think it's nearly impossible to come up with a point-based buying system that always results in a balanced force. Even scenario's are not a guarantee; I was playing a stock scenario the other day with an opponent where he had a panzergrenadier company with halftracks and pzIV's and had to cross a wide, open map where my t-34/85 had hulldown overwacth positions.

It's one of the reasons I've contended myself with just making the best of whatever situation I am in, not caring too much about winning or losing. That's why I am not playing ladder matches. I know myself, if there's something at stake I start acting differently, and not always pleasantly I think. Human against Human is too much fun to let it spoil for me with something as mundane as winning or losing. There's 2 humans and it's a zero sum game, there's always one loser and one winner from game perspective. The only way you can both win is if you have fun no matter the outcome, there's 2 winners then. That's just my personal line of thinking, not meant to be judging or in any other way applicable to anybody but myself.

 

[Bulletpoint]

Human against Human is too much fun to let it spoil for me with something as mundane as winning or losing.

My main issue with situations like these is not really who wins and who loses, but more the way it happens. One player shutting down the other straight out of the gate doesn't make for a very interesting battle.

I'm not bashing Stafford here though. He does play by the rules you agreed on, and maybe he also got surprised how effective those planes are against even StuGs. It surprised me at least.

Or maybe he assumed he would have to deal with massed Panther groups, so needed all the help he could get.

Would just have been more interesting to see what would have happened without the airpower, in my opinion.

 

[KGBoy]

Perhaps a 3 party arbitrator viewing purchases for fairness or house rules to avoid these disappointments? I think aircraft shouldn't be in H2H games at all and esp. if armour limits are being set.

I am still puzzling as to why Stafford brought out the Fireflies so boldly unprotected without hull down positions? They seemed more effective not being used, esp. with aircraft coming again. Having them now would be just the ticket.

 

[Ulvjager]

Just an idea, but maybe allow the German player a higher allotment of armor to compensate for Allied air power?

 

[Drifter Man]

To me this is the problem with Quick Battles. I'm in a large Quick Battle myself at the moment where we agreed to a similar ruleset like you have here. I wanted to go with a force of only SU-76s to simulate a typical Russian infantry layout. In the end I decided for T-34/85s out of fear my oppo might bring panthers or tigers. Turns out he brought PzIVs and a few Wespes, and now I'm the one with overpowered armor...

I think it's nearly impossible to come up with a point-based buying system that always results in a balanced force. Even scenario's are not a guarantee; I was playing a stock scenario the other day with an opponent where he had a panzergrenadier company with halftracks and pzIV's and had to cross a wide, open map where my t-34/85 had hulldown overwacth positions.

It's one of the reasons I've contended myself with just making the best of whatever situation I am in, not caring too much about winning or losing. That's why I am not playing ladder matches. I know myself, if there's something at stake I start acting differently, and not always pleasantly I think. Human against Human is too much fun to let it spoil for me with something as mundane as winning or losing. There's 2 humans and it's a zero sum game, there's always one loser and one winner from game perspective. The only way you can both win is if you have fun no matter the outcome, there's 2 winners then. That's just my personal line of thinking, not meant to be judging or in any other way applicable to anybody but myself.

I agree and that's how I see it, too. The enjoyment clearly isn't about winning. Two opponents clash, each with their set of skills and ideas, over a piece of terrain. One wins - the better one, the luckier one, or the one who just happened to have made fewer mistakes.
I just ask for not being turned into a passenger whose actions cannot change the story of the battle, and for that house rules need to be in place. What I am learning is that they need to be comprehensive and that they need tuning as my experience with large battles grows.

My main issue with situations like these is not really who wins and who loses, but more the way it happens. One player shutting down the other straight out of the gate doesn't make for a very interesting battle.

I'm not bashing Stafford here though. He does play by the rules you agreed on, and maybe he also got surprised how effective those planes are against even StuGs. It surprised me at least.

Or maybe he assumed he would have to deal with massed Panther groups, so needed all the help he could get.

Would just have been more interesting to see what would have happened without the airpower, in my opinion.

Yep and I'm not bashing him either - if it sometimes seems that way then it's just momentary frustration. I don't think he has full picture of what is happening. I was surprised by the effect, too.
The battle would be much more interesting without aircraft - that's what I think.

Perhaps a 3 party arbitrator viewing purchases for fairness or house rules to avoid these disappointments? I think aircraft shouldn't be in H2H games at all and esp. if armour limits are being set.

I am still puzzling as to why Stafford brought out the Fireflies so boldly unprotected without hull down positions? They seemed more effective not being used, esp. with aircraft coming again. Having them now would be just the ticket.

Perhaps, but even the arbitrator may not realize where the battle is headed.
From his note in another thread, he expected his 17 pounders to have superior performance at long range. I'd say he could have waited until the planes are done with their handiwork. But maybe he wants a fight, too

Just an idea, but maybe allow the German player a higher allotment of armor to compensate for Allied air power?

I would rather go the way of restricting the number of aircraft on the Allied side.

 

[Drifter Man]

1329 hrs, Turn 39. All infantry fighting has ceased for now, even the snipers are no longer heard. An unseen Cromwell on Hill 36 is shelling my MG team south of Wynton: the fact that I cannot do anything about it is a bad sign. The surviving crew of the StuG that was strafed in the previous turn - 2 men - bails out. A third Firefly, one I have not seen before, moves forward on Hill 36. From there it could hit the StuH 42 that was trying to kill Stafford's snipers, but does not see the target. The Firefly is not hull down - in fact it is right on top of the hill - and two StuGs should see it, but it is also surrounded by trees, which can complicate spotting and gunnery for both sides. Mortar fire forces the enemy commander in and I expect my opponent to withdraw the tank again in the next turn.



Because the other Firefly on Hill 33 - damaged previously - remains out of sight, I will move a few panzergrenadiers from 1/6 forward again with some mortar support to see what is going on there.

 

[Drifter Man]

1330 hrs, Turn 40. I score an embarrassing own goal in the streets of Wynton: while checking LOS of a StuH 42 with the target tool, I click on the ground nearby by mistake, without noticing. This results in three things:

• 5 valuable 105mm HE rounds are wasted
• 2 German soldiers suffer minor injuries
• A StuG is blinded by the smoke from the explosions just as the enemy Firefly is making a very risky move on Hill 36.

That risky move was Stafford's mistake that I compensated with mine. He probably wanted to put the Firefly in reverse but used a forward move order instead, so the tank slowly turned around on the hill, exposing vulnerable side and rear armor. But the blinded StuG only caught a short glimpse of it through the smoke, and did not manage to fire a shot. An opportunity was wasted.

A Cromwell is confirmed on the hill in perfect hull down position. It is not very dangerous where it is, it would have to move forward to get better lines of fire. In turn, my StuGs can't see it there and they should not even try - it is so deep in the woods that it is probably invulnerable.

I expect an air attack in the next turn or two. Where possible, I will try to protect the StuGs with smoke grenades but it is hard to say if that has any effect.

Situation update, 1330 hrs, 40 minutes in. There has been no development in positions over the last 20 minutes. 2nd Company holds the North Ridge - with the exception of a two-man scout team, Stafford has not attempted anything on this side, although he has amassed a considerable infantry force in the Orchard east of the ridge. 1st Platoon, 6th Company holds Hill 33. With the help of mortars and assault howitzers, they stopped an insufficiently supported attack by a British scout section, but remain vulnerable to mortar fire on the hilltop. 5th Company is stuck in the center on the southwestern approach to Louvoy and has been licking its wounds rather than trying to break through. Enemy infantry activity was mostly limited to snipers firing from positions on Hill 36 and in Louvoy.

The main developments have been in the armor battle - and not in my favor. An air attack disrupted the 1st StuG platoon guarding my southern flank, resulting in the destruction of two vehicles, while the enemy armor took no casualties. The surviving StuG was disabled by another air attack (same plane) ~15 minutes later. This leaves the southern flank without defense against enemy armor and my remaining StuGs are stretched thin. More air attacks are expected in the coming turns. I have 4 StuGs in working order and 1 Marder left, plus two StuH 42. My opponent lost one Firefly tank in a long range gun fight, with another one damaged, but has at least one intact Firefly left - and the Cromwells are a threat, too.

Assumed Stafford's forces
2x Infantry Battalion, with PIATs and on map mortars, minus pioneers but including one AT gun section ... 5265 points
Armoured Regiment (Cromwell) - 3 troops with Fireflies, 2 Stuarts, 2 Crusader AA ... 2845 points
5x Humber LRC ... 320 points
Transports - 3x Truck, 1x Jeep, 3x Halftrack, 5x Universal spotted so far ... 688 points
Air support ... 460 points
At least one FO (possibly 2 given the number of aircraft) ... 63 points
... leaving around 359 points.

Stafford has taken 40 confirmed casualties, mostly vehicle crews, and including 7 "deserters" - troops who glitched out during the embarking process and ran, out of control, towards my positions. One Firefly, one Stuart V and five Humber LRC armored cars have been destroyed. One Firefly and one Cromwell have been damaged. The approximate purchase point value of the casualties is 641 points. 100 3in and 20 2in mortar bombs have been expended (estimated total supply is 432 3in and 288 2in).

I have taken 82 casualties. Two StuG III, two SPW 251/1 halftracks and two SPW 251/2 mortar halftracks have been destroyed. One StuG III and two SPW 251/1 halftracks have been immobilized. The purchase value of the casualties is 1135 points. One StuG III has been heavily damaged, its crew dismounted and is currently in panic. My artillery ammo expenditure is as follows:
81mm: 261/1080 (includes 132 HE lost with the mortar halftracks)
120mm: 48/60
150mm: 41/108

 

[Drifter Man]

1331 hrs, Turn 41. I am now in a completely defensive position. On Hill 31, I demonstrate my infantry incompetence as I send an infantry team sneaking towards the enemy positions. If Hunt doesn't work, at least Slow should, right? There is just one British survivor in the way, unfortunately having a Sten, and opens fire at close range. My point sneaker is hit, but the remaining three, unfazed, sneak on into their deaths. Only one survivor comes to his senses in time, finds out that sneaking is not the right thing to do under the circumstances, and runs away in panic.



This comes at a very inconvenient moment because Stafford is sending reinforcements to Hill 33 - a truck with 28 infantry on board - a Rifle platoon without their HQ. I have withdrawn the rest of 1/6 out of the woods where they cannot be so easily targeted with mortars, and aim my own mortars on the Hill - particularly on the place where I expect the platoon to disembark. But I may not be able to hit them soon enough. Fingers crossed that a StuG will see the truck and nail it with another miracle shot from a kilometer away.