Three Towns (Stafford vs Drifter Man DAR)

KGBoy said:
Hey, a guy has to learn somehow!:D But to my assertion, German stuff is very expensive and you get a lot less for the equivalent points. Why choose them if you can help it?
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Germans are the underdogs of Combat Mission. Their infantry depends on the MG42, which is massively inaccurate, and their only tank worth the points is the Panther. Which is then cancelled by the Firefly.
 
Bulletpoint said:
Germans are the underdogs of Combat Mission. Their infantry depends on the MG42, which is massively inaccurate, and their only tank worth the points is the Panther. Which is then cancelled by the Firefly.
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Relying on the mg42 wouldnt be an issue if not for cm inaccuracies:
- grabbing the gun of a downed gunner can take several minutes of buddy aid which in itself has sodliers sitting up in the line of fire
- mg42s in the lmg role exclusively use the 50 round drum mag rather than belts
- mg42 gunners never actually use their full firepower even in emergency situations
- mg42 gunners use the wrong fire doctrine long burst followed by long pause rather than lots of short bursts with short breaks
 
holoween said:
Relying on the mg42 wouldnt be an issue if not for cm inaccuracies:
- grabbing the gun of a downed gunner can take several minutes of buddy aid which in itself has sodliers sitting up in the line of fire
- mg42s in the lmg role exclusively use the 50 round drum mag rather than belts
- mg42 gunners never actually use their full firepower even in emergency situations
- mg42 gunners use the wrong fire doctrine long burst followed by long pause rather than lots of short bursts with short breaks
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Also just the sheer lack of accuracy. It seems like the gunner is actively trying to miss.
 
Bulletpoint said:
Just noticed you're using a Marder II. Rare to see them in QBs because of the high rarity cost.
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That's right - I had some rarity to spare and wanted to test some less common vehicles. Marder II has more ammo and appears to be slightly better protected, so I chose it over the Marder IIIM
I also have one StuG III (mid) with block-type gunshield, which probably makes no difference.
 
KGBoy said:
Hey, a guy has to learn somehow!:D But to my assertion, German stuff is very expensive and you get a lot less for the equivalent points. Why choose them if you can help it?
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Well one of the two players has to play as Germans... or wait, you can also choose Italians in CMFI :D
 
Bulletpoint said:
Germans are the underdogs of Combat Mission. Their infantry depends on the MG42, which is massively inaccurate, and their only tank worth the points is the Panther. Which is then cancelled by the Firefly.
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I don't complain about the MG42 - I think my tests disproved this claim that MG42 is inaccurate. At 200 m and above it spends more ammo per kill than other weapons, but not more that could be expected from a weapon with such high rate of fire.
If you want to see an inaccurate weapon, look at the FG42. That gun was designed to waste the ammo of parachute units.
MG42 is the most powerful LMG in the game - although it may have been even more powerful in the war for the reasons @holoween mentioned. What bothers me more than reliance on the MG42 is the inflexibility of the two-team arrangement of most German squads (except 11-man motorized Panzergrenadiers... I wonder why everyone choose them :unsure:)
I agree though about the pricing problems in CM, especially for armor. Panther and Marder III are the only reasonable options for the German player. I paid 284 points for each StuG III. Stafford paid 235 points for each Firefly. I think that says it all.
 
Drifter Man said:
I don't complain about the MG42 - I think my tests disproved this claim that MG42 is inaccurate. At 200 m and above it spends more ammo per kill than other weapons, but not more that could be expected from a weapon with such high rate of fire.
If you want to see an inaccurate weapon, look at the FG42. That gun was designed to waste the ammo of parachute units.
MG42 is the most powerful LMG in the game - although it may have been even more powerful in the war for the reasons @holoween mentioned.
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I took a thorough look at your weapons report. My problem with the MG42 is: While it's theoretically the best MG, it's not that good, and still far from good enough to be the cornerstone of the German infantry force. As long as the German squads are intact, they have the same theoretical firepower as the US squads. But they don't stay intact for long. The MG gunner gets knocked out quite fast.

Drifter Man said:
What bothers me more than reliance on the MG42 is the inflexibility of the two-team arrangement of most German squads (except 11-man motorized Panzergrenadiers... I wonder why everyone choose them :unsure:)
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For the organic Shrecks.

Drifter Man said:
I agree though about the pricing problems in CM, especially for armor. Panther and Marder III are the only reasonable options for the German player. I paid 284 points for each StuG III. Stafford paid 235 points for each Firefly. I think that says it all.
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I'm happy I'm not the only one noticing this.
 
Bulletpoint said:
I took a thorough look at your weapons report. My problem with the MG42 is: While it's theoretically the best MG, it's not that good, and still far from good enough to be the cornerstone of the German infantry force. As long as the German squads are intact, they have the same theoretical firepower as the US squads. But they don't stay intact for long. The MG gunner gets knocked out quite fast.
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Yes - it is a disadvantage to rely on just one guy for the bulk of firepower, which is why we like the panzergrenadier units that have two. Still a squad armed with M1 Garand rifles and one or two BARs is much more robust to taking casualties.
However, look at the British rifle section - same problem. I see British infantry strength in organic mortars and snipers.

Bulletpoint said:
For the organic Shrecks.
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Yes - mainly the Schrecks but the flexibility of the three-team squad is also helpful. When you split off a scout team from most German squads, you are left with a humongous 7-man team in one action spot.
 
Drifter Man said:
disadvantage to rely on just one guy for the bulk of firepower, which is why we like the panzergrenadier units that have two. Still a squad armed with M1 Garand rifles and one or two BARs is much more robust to taking casualties.
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It's more than just taking casualties generally. It's also the situation that when you make contact - what's the odds that the MG guy will be the first to go down? AND what's the odds that the MG guy, if he survives, will have LOF?

And even when he does have LOF... it's not a game changer. I just played a scenario where I ambushed a US jeep with German team. 50m distance. Four guys with rifles and one LMG42 could not cause any casualties, while the jeep-mounted US infantry shot one German before driving on into the darkness and disappearing.
 
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Bulletpoint said:
It's more than just taking casualties generally. It's also the situation that when you make contact - what's the odds that the MG guy will be the first to go down? AND what's the odds that the MG guy, if he survives, will have LOF?

And even when he does have LOF... it's not a game changer. I just played a scenario where I ambushed a US jeep with German team. 50m distance. Four guys with rifles and one LMG42 could not cause any casualties, while the jeep-mounted US infantry shot one German before driving on into the darkness and disappearing.
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Fair points, but apply to German vs US - the British have the same problem. In any case I don't see infantry and its LMGs as major German weakness - but it is not a strength, either. I have yet to fight a battle where the parameters of the infantry involved play a decisive role.
But I am starting to see that with the US having their Garands and organic mortars and with the British having Fireflies, organic mortars and snipers, and with both US and British having cheap aircraft and a selection of good and affordable tanks... the Germans are entitled to their über cats.
 
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1337 hrs, Turns 46-47. The Marder sits in position for two minutes, with good observation of Hill 33 and of the spot where the Firefly is, but still has no contact. The focus of the action now moves back to the center, where I am trying - again - to get some scouts into the woods held by the British. I have established that Stafford moves his troops exclusively by sneaking. This allows him to move without being spotted, even in moderate concealment. I often only learn where his troops are when they open fire. As soon as they are exposed and Stafford feels that my mortar fire is getting more accurate, he withdraws them using Quick or Fast movement orders.

In this turn, the snipers started feeling the heat and withdrew over the hill just as one of them was about to sneak into an ambush. One of the sniper teams has only one man - could be that the Marksman has been killed and his buddy has recovered the weapon, which could explain why they haven't scored any kills lately. Instead, Stafford moves in another asymmetric weapon: the mighty 2in mortar. It fires a single round, almost as a warning shot, and wipes out three men. There is this notion that British 2in mortars are only good for suppression and smoke, but that's wrong - as Stafford has shown me in our previous battle, they are killers. Of course I will target the location of the mortar - but Stafford will continue shelling until the ground gets too hot and then withdraw as usual.

Turn047b.jpg

I need to progress - I need to push the opponent out of Hill 36 and the woods southwest of Louvoy - otherwise I could just as well ask for ceasefire. But the task seems impossible, the place is just too easy to defend and Stafford has demonstrated he can easily defend it. The most covered approach (1) can be targeted from the direction of Louvoy and from Hill 36 by mortars and snipers. Approach (2) can only be targeted from the Hill but it is protected by the two enemy tanks around the bend - I can't do anything about these. A smoke screen, which I could lay down as indicated in the picture, could allow my troops to pass into the woods - but will they be able to do anything there? The most promising directions are (3) and (4), although they go across open terrain, fire from Hill 36 is the only threat there.

Turn047a.jpg
 
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1338 hrs, Turn 48. The 2in mortar problem is solved from an unexpected direction - a 150mm shell arrives 4 minutes earlier than expected and lands close to the enemy mortar team. They are not wiped out but they should not give me any trouble for a while. A tank sound contact is heard moving in - possibly a Firefly seeking to engage my StuH 42. If so, I decide to accept the challenge. I have little to lose - but the assault howitzer will really need to score with its first shot to come out on top. Depending on where the enemy tank shows up, there is a chance that another StuG or a panzerschreck will be able to fire at it.

In the north, as single scout reaches the Orchard and soon finds himself in a firefight with a few British soldiers. He is followed by a 4-man team and I hope they will be able to support their isolated comrade, but the truth is that his life expectancy is now in the order of seconds. All I want to achieve here is for the British infantry to raise their heads and fight - so that I can hit them with even more artillery. There is little value in holding the Orchard and I don't want to spend too many men on it.

South of the orchard, a three-man scout team is seen moving towards my positions along the North Ridge.
 
You probably already mentioned this, but are you preparing to shell Hill 36 with the 150mm? Or are you continuing to "fish" around the Orchard hoping to hit something? I think if he had troops at the Orchard, they are long gone by now.

Your approach 3 & 4 could be doable if you get a good barrage in first.
 
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Drifter Man said:
Now that I can see the exact position of the damaged Firefly, I can do something to kill it. Its hatches are closed - as could be expected with all the mortar fire falling around - and I think I have a place for the Marder to take a shot at it. At more than 1600 meters, it is the longest shot I've ever attempted.
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Even if you can spot and hit it, you're extremely unlikely to penetrate it at this range. Unless you somehow get a side shot, or you have the blessing of Marduk, god of Marders.
 
Bulletpoint said:
You probably already mentioned this, but are you preparing to shell Hill 36 with the 150mm? Or are you continuing to "fish" around the Orchard hoping to hit something? I think if he had troops at the Orchard, they are long gone by now.

Your approach 3 & 4 could be doable if you get a good barrage in first.
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I have two 150mm sections - both have been firing on Harass intensity from around Turn 10. Each is directed by an FO who keeps adjusting the target - I try to keep my opponent guessing where the next shell will land.
One is still fishing around the Orchard - some infantry is in the Orchard, I found them in the craters, and I hope more infantry is hiding further back. When I am satisfied with the level of destruction, I may shut down this fire mission to conserve ammunition. I need these 150mm boys to last.
The second mission has been targeting various spots on Hill 36 - right now I am aiming for the Cromwell tank but even if I achieve no effect against the tank, I hope I can take out some other units nearby - like the 2in mortar just now.
In addition, I am shelling Hill 36 with 81mm mortars. But there aren't many targets - Stafford stays hidden, sneaks in and out. I don't want to spend too much ammo on a few snipers who I don't even know if they are even there at the moment.

Bulletpoint said:
Even if you can spot and hit it, you're extremely unlikely to penetrate it at this range. Unless you somehow get a side shot, or you have the blessing of Marduk, god of Marders.
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Yes - penetration is a problem at this range - but still possible.
 
Blady said:
And even if not. A few misses/ricochets at least sends a clear message the hill is not his (yet) and will force him to retreat.
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Or will prompt the Firefly to send a very clear 17pdr message back to the Marder that the hill is in fact his and that no disturbances of the meditation of the Firefly's crew will be tolerated :)
 
I think the only thing you could realistically hope for at that range is to disable the gun (which would be great), but at long ranges, it's more rare to actually hit the gun due to increased dispersion ...
 
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