Ardennes Firefight Tourney Archive- for tactical study

Not quite. Originally, skirts were intended to stop ATR rounds (or at least reduce projectile speed enough to have the armor plates take the rest) - that they worked against HC rounds as well is either luck or very clever design (not too many HC around in '43 either). The mesh skirts (called "Tomaschürzen" by the way) were ONLY intended to stop HC of course - no discussion there. Lucky us the skirts work very well against HC rounds ingame, which is all that matters to me!
 
I can believe that the original use for the skirts may have been to combat ATR rounds but like Seel points out, ATRs were already on their way out once HC became available. Skirts, especially during the time frame of this tourney were meant to defeat HC rounds. I don't believe that CM takes skirts into account when it calculates hits...which is a shame.
Lord Bane
 
I'm not so sure there - I had a Sherman once hit a PzIV with a 105mm HC shell from the side. The shell detonated - and nothing happened (meaning: the pzIV didn't take any damage). Therefore I conclude that skirts are indeed taken into account - "has skirts" in the vehicle's info box means exactly that in my opinion - else it wouldn't make sense to list it there, don't you think?
 
This series of tests indicates that skirts give no protection against bazookas, but DO give protection against ATR's and ATG's.

TEST 1 (AT-Rifle)
I lined up 3x Pz IVG (with skirts) and 3x PzIVG (no skirts) in line astern in alternating order- skirts/no skirts/skirts/no skirts etc
Note how the kill chance is 'Rare' against the skirted machine, but a slightly better 'Low' against the no skirts tank.
The results were exactly the same when I dragged the target line to the other tanks in the column; 'Rare' for skirts, and 'Low' for no skirts.
ATR-a.gif







TEST 2 (45mm ATG)
In a close range test (not shown here) the kill chance was 'Good' against skirts AND against no skirts, but at longer ranges (as in this pic) after the shot had slowed down a little, skirts DID give better protection than no skirts; ('Good' against no skirts but only 'OK' against skirts)
ATG-a.gif







TEST 3 (bazooka)
Skirts gave no protection, as the bazooka had a kill chance of 'OK' against skirts and no skirts.
BAZa.gif




CONCLUSIONS
Smaller calibre armour-piercing shot (ATR's and light ATG's etc) definitely have a harder time penetrating through skirted machines, but of course larger cals would go through skirts like butter.
Bazookas go through skirts quite easily, perhaps skirts do give a tiny amount of protection against zooks but if so it wasn't enough to show up in the tests.

Incidentally just for the record this is the full CM kill chance ratings chart-
Excellent
Very good
Good
OK
Fair
Low
Very low
Rare
None

(I'll transfer these test pics and discussion posts to the Tactics Forum later)
 
GAME 22 of 26 FINISHED

POS v Eniced
Winner POS, maj vic

Armour at start:-
Eniced: 1x Panther, 5x PzIVlong, 2x halftrack
POS: 5x Sher76, 1x Greyhound, 1x halftrack

My Shermans spent most of the game almost static hiding from his Panther, so he came hunting them down. I had nowhere to run so I had to stand and slug it out. The Panther took an immobilisation and abandoned, and after that the tank battle swung my way..
Eniced-end.gif

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LEADER BOARD
(Only the contestants whose score beat mine are shown on it. Colour depicts the side they commanded, blue=Ger, green=US)

1st- Earl of Grey: score 42 (71%-29% tactical vic)
2nd- Silent Otto: score 38 (69%-31% tactical vic)
3rd- Lord Bane: score 36 (68%-32% tactical vic)
4th- Wardog: score 30 (65%-35% tactical vic)
5th- Cargol and Hedgehog: score 24 (both players 62%-38% minor vic)
7th- Breakthrough: score 22 (61%-39% minor vic)
8th- Breaklight: score 18 (59%-41% minor vic)
9th- Nort: score 12 (56%-44% minor vic)
10th- AntiG3n: score 10 (55%-45% draw)
11th- Airborne Bob: score 8 (54%-46% draw)
12th- Mikey: score 6 (53%-47% draw)

------------------------------------------------------------

(4 games still to finish before the midnight July 14th tourney deadline)

22 FINISHED SO FAR, click 'Awards' to claim your tourney ribbon.
Chronological order of finishing-
Ryohei
Johnsy
Bootie
Rico
Breaklight
Earl of Grey
Airborne Bob
Nathangun
Cargol
Silent Otto
Breakthrough
Hedgehog
Wardog
Mikey
mTk
Lord Bane
Proniakin
Von Reich
Nort
AntiG3n
Bert Blitzkrieg
Eniced
---------------------
For the record: POS Won 10, Lost 9, Drawn 3

More stats:- of the 26 competitors, 13 chose to be German, and 13 chose to be American
 
Hm... your test is very enlightening. Then I must have been INCREDIBLY lucky that Sherman didn't kill my PzIV - or they changed the rules. Which year did your run the tests in?
 
You were probably just mistaken as to the kind of ammo that it fired. It was probably just a standard HE round.
Lord Bane
 
Possible and very likely, although I recall my opponent being sure he fired an HC round. But even an HE round should be able to take a PzIV out from the side - we should run a few tests with HE only Shermans. Maybe I can get something to work.
 
Earl of Grey said:
..I had a Sherman once hit a PzIV with a 105mm HC shell from the side. The shell detonated - and nothing happened (meaning: the pzIV didn't take any damage). Therefore I conclude that skirts are indeed taken into account..
Click to expand...

The computer gave me HC ammo in many Ard Firefight games (Sher105 and Stug105) but its performance has been disappointing because I've observed that if it hits flat armour at an angle, or if it hits sloped armour, a lot of its blast is deflected away.
To be really effective it must hit flat armour plate at a 90-degree angle.
Skirts may or may not help the target against HC, but it'd take many tests under different conditions and I don't have enough time to do them.
Incidentally, British and American tanks never had skirts which is interesting, so obviously Allied high command didn't think they were worth having.

As regards HE shells against armour, some are good and some are not so good. Even big 150mm shells often do no damage at all.
Different nations had different shell designs which may have varied at different times throughout the war and would require too many tests to do.

Conclusion- based on observations during gameplay, HC and HE shells versus armour are unpredictable, sometimes they damage the target, sometimes they don't, so never rely too much on them.
Armour-piercing shells are the only ones we can trust to have a good chance of penetrating.
 
GAME 23 of 26 FINISHED

POS v Owl
Winner POS, tactical vic

Armour at start:-
Owl: 5x PzIVlong, 1x Stug-long, 1x flame halftrack
POS: 5x Sher75, 3x Greyhound, 1x Stuart

Slow headon meatgrinder inch-by-inch; Owl stripped my infantry from the Shers, and the big flag remained neutral but I scraped the win by holding onto the small flag-
Owl-end-2.gif

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LEADER BOARD
(Only the contestants whose score beat mine are shown on it. Colour depicts the side they commanded, blue=Ger, green=US)

1st- Earl of Grey: score 42 (71%-29% tactical vic)
2nd- Silent Otto: score 38 (69%-31% tactical vic)
3rd- Lord Bane: score 36 (68%-32% tactical vic)
4th- Wardog: score 30 (65%-35% tactical vic)
5th- Cargol and Hedgehog: score 24 (both players 62%-38% minor vic)
7th- Breakthrough: score 22 (61%-39% minor vic)
8th- Breaklight: score 18 (59%-41% minor vic)
9th- Nort: score 12 (56%-44% minor vic)
10th- AntiG3n: score 10 (55%-45% draw)
11th- Airborne Bob: score 8 (54%-46% draw)
12th- Mikey: score 6 (53%-47% draw)

------------------------------------------------------------

(3 games still to finish before the midnight July 14th tourney deadline- Seel, LRC, Jonny)

23 FINISHED SO FAR, click 'Awards' to claim your tourney ribbon.
Chronological order of finishing-
Ryohei
Johnsy
Bootie
Rico
Breaklight
Earl of Grey
Airborne Bob
Nathangun
Cargol
Silent Otto
Breakthrough
Hedgehog
Wardog
Mikey
mTk
Lord Bane
Proniakin
Von Reich
Nort
AntiG3n
Bert Blitzkrieg
Eniced
Owl
---------------------

For the record: POS Won 11, Lost 9, Drawn 3

More stats:- of the 26 competitors, 13 chose to be German, and 13 chose to be American
 
GAME 24 of 26 FINISHED

POS v Seel
Winner POS, minor vic

Armour at start:-
Seel: 6x Sher105, 1x Greyhound, 1x M8 HMC
POS: 6x PzIVlong, 2x halftracks

Heavy tank losses on both sides but my grip on the large flag tipped the scales of victory my way-
Seel-fin.gif

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LEADER BOARD
(Only the contestants whose score beat mine are shown on it. Colour depicts the side they commanded, blue=Ger, green=US)

1st- Earl of Grey: score 42 (71%-29% tactical vic)
2nd- Silent Otto: score 38 (69%-31% tactical vic)
3rd- Lord Bane: score 36 (68%-32% tactical vic)
4th- Wardog: score 30 (65%-35% tactical vic)
5th- Cargol and Hedgehog: score 24 (both players 62%-38% minor vic)
7th- Breakthrough: score 22 (61%-39% minor vic)
8th- Breaklight: score 18 (59%-41% minor vic)
9th- Nort: score 12 (56%-44% minor vic)
10th- AntiG3n: score 10 (55%-45% draw)
11th- Airborne Bob: score 8 (54%-46% draw)
12th- Mikey: score 6 (53%-47% draw)

------------------------------------------------------------

(2 games still to finish before the midnight July 14th tourney deadline-LRC, Jonny)

24 FINISHED SO FAR, click 'Awards' to claim your tourney ribbon.
Chronological order of finishing-
Ryohei
Johnsy
Bootie
Rico
Breaklight
Earl of Grey
Airborne Bob
Nathangun
Cargol
Silent Otto
Breakthrough
Hedgehog
Wardog
Mikey
mTk
Lord Bane
Proniakin
Von Reich
Nort
AntiG3n
Bert Blitzkrieg
Eniced
Owl
Seel
---------------------

For the record: POS Won 12, Lost 9, Drawn 3

More stats:- of the 26 competitors, 13 chose to be German, and 13 chose to be American
 
GAME 25 of 26 FINISHED

POS v LRC
Winner POS, minor vic

Armour at start:-
LRC: 5x PzIVlong, 3x Stug105, 1x halftrack
POS: 5x Sher76, 1x Greyhound

Bitter attrition battle as both sides ground down each others armour-
LRC-fin.gif

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LEADER BOARD
(Only the contestants whose score beat mine are shown on it. Colour depicts the side they commanded, blue=Ger, green=US)

1st- Earl of Grey: score 42 (71%-29% tactical vic)
2nd- Silent Otto: score 38 (69%-31% tactical vic)
3rd- Lord Bane: score 36 (68%-32% tactical vic)
4th- Wardog: score 30 (65%-35% tactical vic)
5th- Cargol and Hedgehog: score 24 (both players 62%-38% minor vic)
7th- Breakthrough: score 22 (61%-39% minor vic)
8th- Breaklight: score 18 (59%-41% minor vic)
9th- Nort: score 12 (56%-44% minor vic)
10th- AntiG3n: score 10 (55%-45% draw)
11th- Airborne Bob: score 8 (54%-46% draw)
12th- Mikey: score 6 (53%-47% draw)

------------------------------------------------------------

(1 game still to finish before the midnight July 14th tourney deadline- Jonny)

25 FINISHED SO FAR, click 'Awards' to claim your tourney ribbon.
Chronological order of finishing-
Ryohei
Johnsy
Bootie
Rico
Breaklight
Earl of Grey
Airborne Bob
Nathangun
Cargol
Silent Otto
Breakthrough
Hedgehog
Wardog
Mikey
mTk
Lord Bane
Proniakin
Von Reich
Nort
AntiG3n
Bert Blitzkrieg
Eniced
Owl
Seel
LRC
---------------------

For the record: POS Won 13, Lost 9, Drawn 3

More stats:- of the 26 competitors, 13 chose to be German, and 13 chose to be American
 
GAME 26 of 26 FINISHED

POS v Jonny
Winner POS, maj vic

Armour at start:-
Jonny: 6x PzIVlong, 1x flame halftrack
POS: 5x Sher105, 3x Greyhound

The computer gave me a bad hand of Sher105's so I spent most of the game hiding them from Jonny's panzers..
Jonny-end-1.gif

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LEADER BOARD
(Only the contestants whose score beat mine are shown on it. Colour depicts the side they commanded, blue=Ger, green=US)

1st- Earl of Grey: score 42 (71%-29% tactical vic)
2nd- Silent Otto: score 38 (69%-31% tactical vic)
3rd- Lord Bane: score 36 (68%-32% tactical vic)
4th- Wardog: score 30 (65%-35% tactical vic)
5th- Cargol and Hedgehog: score 24 (both players 62%-38% minor vic)
7th- Breakthrough: score 22 (61%-39% minor vic)
8th- Breaklight: score 18 (59%-41% minor vic)
9th- Nort: score 12 (56%-44% minor vic)
10th- AntiG3n: score 10 (55%-45% draw)
11th- Airborne Bob: score 8 (54%-46% draw)
12th- Mikey: score 6 (53%-47% draw)

------------------------------------------------------------

Chronological order of finishing-
Ryohei
Johnsy
Bootie
Rico
Breaklight
Earl of Grey
Airborne Bob
Nathangun
Cargol
Silent Otto
Breakthrough
Hedgehog
Wardog
Mikey
mTk
Lord Bane
Proniakin
Von Reich
Nort
AntiG3n
Bert Blitzkrieg
Eniced
Owl
Seel
LRC
Jonny
---------------------

For the record: POS Won 14, Lost 9, Drawn 3

More stats:- of the 26 competitors, 13 chose to be German, and 13 chose to be American
 
EARL of GREY WINS THE TOURNEY!

FINAL LEADER BOARD
(Only the contestants whose score beat mine are shown on it. Colour depicts the side they commanded, blue=Ger, green=US)

1st- Earl of Grey: score 42 (71%-29% tactical vic)
2nd- Silent Otto: score 38 (69%-31% tactical vic)
3rd- Lord Bane: score 36 (68%-32% tactical vic)
4th- Wardog: score 30 (65%-35% tactical vic)
5th- Cargol and Hedgehog: score 24 (both players 62%-38% minor vic)
7th- Breakthrough: score 22 (61%-39% minor vic)
8th- Breaklight: score 18 (59%-41% minor vic)
9th- Nort: score 12 (56%-44% minor vic)
10th- AntiG3n: score 10 (55%-45% draw)
11th- Airborne Bob: score 8 (54%-46% draw)
12th- Mikey: score 6 (53%-47% draw)

How Earl of Grey did it-
His Panther (1) pins three of my Sher75's (2) (half my entire tank force) in the top corner of the map for most of the game.
Meanwhile his three Stugs and a PzIV (3) advance on the town, so I hurriedly bring up my other three Sher75's (4), but two are knocked out en route, and my Stuart is also brewed (red fire lanes), and Earl of Grey finishes with no tank losses at all.
EoGrey-endB.gif




EoG chose a tankard instead of a cup-

eog-tankd.gif



Spike, I drink to you. Thanks for the tankard, it's a fine piece!

winner.jpg
 
Well done Earl of Grey! Congratulations! Thanks for the Tourney POS!
Lord Bane
 
I'd like to add my congrats to Earl of Grey also and to POS thanks for a great little tourney.
 
Thanks, guys - I still think I just got lucky. I'm not that good a CM player and this was in fact my very first CM tournament ever. It was really cool and a nice idea. Heartfelt thanks to Spike for providing such a cool experience. Mail to follow soon!
 
None the less Earl of Grey, congrats!!
Was also my first CM tourny not counting the Lord Bane challange last year where he played the axis. ( I got thrashed...)
Well done!
Breaklight
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom